Clivedurdle

James Hider in The spiders of Allah (or via: amazon.co.uk) comments that a book "Secrets of the Exodus" argued that the original Jews were

P20

Is this accepted?

Jaybees

I think the latest scholarly view is that the Exodus never happened, that the Hebrews were a small tribe rattling around in Palestine doing damage to themselves and others, and that they were greatly influenced by the Egyptians using that area as an obvious but dangerous trade route to Asia.

As for Egyptian influence on the early Hebrews, I think no one disputes that view.

I now expect many contributors to correct me.

sotto voce

... doubtless read my comment that the monotheism of the Israelites was convincing enough to inspire something similarly powerful in Egypt.

Sheshbazzar

I have engaged this subject here in the past. It tends to become a painful discussion, with strongly opposing opinions expressed, and with virtually nothing to be found in the way of material archaeological evidence available to sway the opposition, there is little chance of ever reaching any resolution or conclusions.
Weird the way the Torah writings appear to reflect significant early Egyptian influence on their composition, but the archaeological evidence is solidly indicative of the Hebrews slowly arising out of a contemporary Canaanite culture with virtually nil Egyptian influences.

Could this be the case because large portions of the Torah were actually a mythical 'national history' composed much latter in Judaism's development than what the texts presents?
I hope this thread does not turn into yet another one of those interminable disputes.




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Cheerful Charlie

No. Ancient Egyptians and Jews were almost totally different in all ways especially religion. Early Jewish religion was an adaptation of the Northern Semitic El myth cycle, El, God, his 70 sons, (See Job 1 and 2), his wife Asherah et al. It became Judaism by shedding large parts of its mythology over time. As Josephus (and the NT) point out, the Sadducces did not accept life after death because the early Torah did not have anything that pointed to life after death, while the Egyptian religion was from earliest times a religion that did in fact posit life after death.

Cheerful Charlie

sotto voce

Oh, hah.

Clivedurdle

One step at a time. What do we know about Akhenaton.

Are there Egyptian records that his priests and followers were expelled to Canaan.

I agree the Exodus did not happen and the Hebrews do look indiginous with a habit of not eating pork.

Are we looking at more than one introduction of monotheism. A first one from Egypt, a much later one from Persia - Cyrus and Darius, and the Torah originating on the Rivers of Babylon and using vague memories of the earlier monotheism?

Clivedurdle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

Cheerful Charlie

There was Manetho that related a somewhat corrupted version of Exodus, but that was so late it cannot be held to prove exodus independently despite many efforts to argue for that by Christians. But mainly, no. And as for what Egyptians thought about religion about the time of Ankhaten, there were a large number of religious hymns, collectively known ass the Lieden papyri that tried various ways of harmonizing Egptian main strains of religion and a single God. Re, Osiris, Amun et al. Genesis 6 and Job 1 and 2 betray the fact that early Judaism was polytheistic. It may just have been that the El myth cycle was unbelievable and stupid that repelled some thinkers to start modifying it rather than accept another goofy myth cycle, and eventually bit by bit achieved monotheism, about 600 BCE.

Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie

There was Manetho that related a somewhat corrupted version of Exodus, but that was so late it cannot be held to prove exodus independently despite many efforts to argue for that by Christians. But mainly, no. And as for what Egyptians thought about religion about the time of Ankhaten, there were a large number of religious hymns, collectively known ass the Lieden papyri that tried various ways of harmonizing Egptian main strains of religion and a single God. Re, Osiris, Amun et al. Genesis 6 and Job 1 and 2 betray the fact that early Judaism was polytheistic. It may just have been that the El myth cycle was unbelievable and stupid that repelled some thinkers to start modifying it rather than accept another goofy myth cycle, and eventually bit by bit achieved monotheism, about 600 BCE.

Cheerful Charlie