Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-09-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

I've heard about two inscriptions on some ossuaries (or something like that) from the middle of the first century: "Jesus, help!" and "Jesus, he is risen!". I know this isn't evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth but I would like to know if you've heard about this.

These seem to be referenced here, citing Simon Greenleaf:

Quote:

It is also fairly well known that archeologists have excavated a Christian tomb in the clay limestone hills around Jerusalem which housed ossuaries (stone boxes containing the bones of dead people.) On all four sides of these ossuaries, were found charcoal-drawn crosses, and pottery was found of a type known as Herodia, as well as a coin minted by Agrippa I in the year 41 A.D. Consequently, we know that this was a Christian tomb, dating 41 A.D., less than 10 years after Jesus’ crucifixion. Two of the ossuaries had the name Jesus inscribed on them. On one ossuary the name Jesus was followed by "iou," which is the Greek version of Yahweh, the name of God. In other words, the inscription read: "Jesus is God�?. The other ossuary that bore the name "Jesus" had the Greek letters "aloth" following it. This is a Hebrew word written in Greek letters, meaning "ascended one." This then, is collateral evidence that ten years after Jesus’ crucifixion, Christians were buried with the belief that Jesus was God, and that Jesus was resurrected!

The problem with this: Christians did not use the cross as a symbol in the first century, but other groups did. So these were probably not Christian tombs. And IESOUS was a very common name.

F.F. Bruce has said about these ossuaries:

Quote:

In 1945 the late Professor E. L. Sukenik of the Hebrew University found what he claimed to be 'the earliest records of Christianity' in inscriptions written on two ossuaries or repositories for human bones near Jerusalem. But it now seems fairly certain that the inscriptions have nothing to do with Christianity, but refer to two separate first century individuals named Jesus, neither of them being Jesus of Nazareth.

(from The New Testament Documents: Are they Reliable? By F. F. Bruce)

andrewcriddle · 12-09-2005, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

I've heard about two inscriptions on some ossuaries (or something like that) from the middle of the first century: "Jesus, help!" and "Jesus, he is risen!". I know this isn't evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth but I would like to know if you've heard about this.

There is an account of Professor Sukenik's claims here http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/RawM...=1&t=339&m=207The Authenticity of the finds is not in dispute but their interpretation is.

Some scholars regard them as simply the names of the people whose remains are in the ossuaries.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 12-09-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

There is an account of Professor Sukenik's claims here http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/RawM...=1&t=339&m=207The Authenticity of the finds is not in dispute but their interpretation is.

Some scholars regard them as simply the names of the people whose remains are in the ossuaries.

Andrew Criddle

That link doesn't go to the thread. You appear to be referencing this thread:

http://evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?a...&f=1&t=339&m=1 (The existence of Jesus Christ) but it's 19 pages long.

Roger Pearse · 12-09-2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iasion

You may like to check my page here :
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...lyWriters.html

which briefly lists such references amongst the writers of the period (about 30-180.)

In short, the "evidences" usually given include:
* Josephus
* Tacitus
* Pliny
* Suetonius
* Mara bar-Serapion
* Numenius
* Thallus
* Phlegon
* Lucian
* Fronto
(all of which which can be researched with a quick search, start with http://www.earlychristianwritings.com)

Most of these are suspect, forged, late, or not about Jesus;
none of it is contemporary,
none of it is certain proof of Jesus.

You might like to read a post written in response to this, although I don't guarantee that the website is exactly the same any more as it was when I commented. The comment is here.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

ISVfan · 12-09-2005, 02:02 PM

Josephus did write there was a real man named Jesus Christ and that he lived around 10A.D. Josephus was a highly respected historian I'm sure you guys have some sort of reason not to believe him but the fact remains he was an accurate historian. That said he doesn't say much else about Jesus just he existed.

ISVfan · 12-09-2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

That's actually the best argument. Your way would have us believing in invisible pink unicorns since there is no evidence they exist.There is a big difference in believing your ancestors existed and believing that a god exists. No one is asking anyone to base their whole life on the existence of your ancestors. Here's a good example; you claim you have a penny in your pocket. I'll agree because it's inconsequential. You tell me there's a god I have to worship, you're going to have to prove it.

I agree. The fact the Jesus lived I think is pretty obvious. But proof of the miracles and differant things that He did to prove He was God isn't documented other than in the Gospels.Which I believe is proof.

12-09-2005, 02:20 PM

Greetings,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISVfan

Josephus did write there was a real man named Jesus Christ and that he lived around 10A.D.

Pardon?

Did you know that the T.F. (the passage about Jesus in Josephus) has been TAMPERED with by Christians?

Or possibly even forged entirely?

Such is the "evidence" for Jesus, that a corrupt or totally forged passage from 1/2 century later is considered a good example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISVfan

Josephus was a highly respected historian

Really?

How about his recording of Vespasian healing a blind man with spit?
Do you believe that is historical?
Do you think modern historians respect Josephus for "recording "this incident?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISVfan

I'm sure you guys have some sort of reason not to believe him but the fact remains he was an accurate historian.

Pardon?
"Some sort of reason"?
In other words you have NO IDEA what the problems with the T.F. are at all.

Such as the fact that Origen describes a Josephus that is different to our modern version.

Or the fact that no early Christian writers, even those who quote and discuss Josephus, until after Eusebius the master forger "discovers" it.

Iasion

Asha'man · 12-09-2005, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISVfan

Josephus did write there was a real man named Jesus Christ and that he lived around 10A.D. Josephus was a highly respected historian I'm sure you guys have some sort of reason not to believe him but the fact remains he was an accurate historian. That said he doesn't say much else about Jesus just he existed.

You should check out Peter Kirby's complete discussion of this item here:
Testimonium Flavianum

The simple answer is that we know for certain that Josephus's account was tampered with by later Christians. The wording that is used is entirely out of character for Josephus, and alternate versions of the text exist.

The question that remains is the extent of that tampering. It might be that Josephus did mention Jesus, but then his casual mention was embellished and exaggerated later.

However, there are strong arguments that the entire text was inserted, and that Josephus never mentioned this particular Jesus at all. One, the TF clearly interrupts the surrounding text. If the TF is simply removed, the text flows perfectly from the preceding paragraph to the following. Two, early christian fathers quoted Josephus extensively when defending their beliefs, but failed utterly to quote the TF. Given their apparent knowledge and use of Josephus, the best explanation for that failure is that the TF simply didn't exist at that time.

Oh, and the TF does not provide a date such as 10 A.D., though it does mention Pilate condemning him, and we know when Pilate held his position.

12-09-2005, 02:25 PM

Greetings Roger,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

You might like to read a post written in response to this, although I don't guarantee that the website is exactly the same any more as it was when I commented. The comment is here.
All the best,
Roger Pearse

Thank you for taking the time to critique my work, Roger :-)
I do appreciate it, even if we disagree. I do not think my page has changed much since your answer.

Iasion

12-09-2005, 02:35 PM

Greetings,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISVfan

I agree. The fact the Jesus lived I think is pretty obvious.

The BELIEF that Jesus lived is "obvious" to you,
The BELIEF that Moses lived is "obvious" to a Jew.
The BELIEF that Krishna lived is "obvious" to a Hindu.
The BELIEF that Lao Tzu lived is "obvious" to a Taoist.

But here we debate history and facts and evidence.

Did you know some people believe Sherlock Holmes is real?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISVfan

But proof of the miracles and differant things that He did to prove He was God isn't documented other than in the Gospels.Which I believe is proof.

Muslims BELIEVE al'Quraan is proof.
Hindus BELIEVE the Mahabharata is proof.
etc.

You are welcome to your beliefs,
you are welcome to tell us your beliefs,
but,
we are not in church now,
you won't get any nods and smiles and "praise Jesus!" in response here.

If you want to convince people,
you will have to produce some evidence and arguments -
repeating faithful Christian beliefs we have all heard a 1000 times, just won't do it.

Iasion

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12-09-2005, 02:02 PM	#15
ISVfan Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Somers, MT Posts: 78	Josephus did write there was a real man named Jesus Christ and that he lived around 10A.D. Josephus was a highly respected historian I'm sure you guys have some sort of reason not to believe him but the fact remains he was an accurate historian. That said he doesn't say much else about Jesus just he existed.

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