Illusionist

As far as we know, nothing can exist outside of time. So, for God to even have the idea of creating the universe and the Earth, there would have to be thought, which cannot exist without time. How then, do Christians say God exists outside of time? You cannot make something from nothing.

Toto

This question is not BCH material. The writers of the Bible did not think in terms of modern cosmology.

Let's try EOG.

IanC

Are you saying that an omnimax being must obey the laws of physics?

Within the laws of physics (well, not defined ones, but it seems reasonably accepted as possible) there could be something in which the universe is 'contained'. This is referred to as a multiverse. I am not saying that a God must be in this multiverse, but that if it could be that a multiverse exists outside the universe, then a being could exist outside the universe.

Time need not really be an issue, we can only think of things in terms of beginning and end because thats all we have to learn from.


Ian

Agnostic Theist

This has been tried out by Draygomb (a poster who frequents these boards).

If God is beyond logic then He doesn't have to be bound by time.

Of course if I get into this again we'll go round the same circles of 'decisions require time' 'God can't make a decision without time' etc. None of that is necessary, and I certainly see no reason why I must apply such constraints to God, so if you'll excuse me I'd like to respectfully bow out.

Illusionist

yeah, i suppose the "hes God no explanation is needed" is a fairly easy way of dodging the question- then again there is no real answer. But how does anyone know God is beyond logic? Just because there is no answer to a question doesnt mean that God is beyond logic; perhaps it means that the question pokes holes in such a myth...

John A. Broussard

Pretty much the standard Christian (religionist?) answer is that god is unknowable. That, of course, sets me off. If god is unknowable, what's the point of discussing his existence or non-existence, his "timeness" or non-timeness. In fact, how can there be any discussion about something which is unknowable?

Agnostic Theist

Yeah!

Or maybe you could take it from a Fictionalistic perspective and say if God were x, then y. Something like that.

It's not about what God is, it's about what you and the other guy(s) reckon He might be.

John A. Broussard

I've tried that, but no soap. They keep up the mantra--"You can't measure god by a human yardstick." Wish I had a euro for everytime I've heard that said.

show_no_mercy

You've also opened up another can of worms by saying "God is beyond logic". If God is beyond logic, then for one he wouldn't possess the logic needed to create logic, and two a being that is "beyond logic" (an identity) would not be constrained by the law of non-contradiction... and is thus bound by logic. Due to being "beyond" non-contradiction, any identity that this God has (like being "beyond" logic) would also be supplimented by its opposite (like NOT being "beyond" logic).

Just my .02 cents...

MachineGod

Isn't that what every perspective concerning God is about then? You said..."If God is beyond logic then" ....which follows the perspective that you suggested. "If God were <x>, then <y>. It follows even with "if God is unknowable, then <y>".

I mean, why not assert that a little green fairy makes the grass grow? "If a fairy makes the grass grow, then" "If the fairy can do anything, then <y>"

"If we can't prove there is a fairy, then why say there is one?" Is it because you wouldn't understand how the grass grows?