Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 05-31-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

...Paul writes that "we speak wisdom among those who are mature". It doesn't make much sense for Paul to be saying "but not the wisdom of demons." All the way through, Paul is contrasting human wisdom with God's. "The wisdom of demons" doesn't make much sense.

From Origen's Homilies on Luke, pg.25:

"You will find that it was Christ's will that the devil should be ignorant of the coming of God's Son. For, the Apostle maintains that the opposing powers (Origen's standard term for the forces of evil) were ignorant of his Passion."

Origen then quotes the passage we are discussing, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8.

"None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

So, if the demons had known that Jesus had come (either as a spirit or as a man), would they have crucified Jesus? Paul is saying that they wouldn't have, if "rulers of this age" means demons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Keep in mind what Paul is saying in Romans 13: human rulers are, in a sense, "God's servants". I see this as Paul trying to place Christianity as a Roman-friendly cult. "The [human] rulers have wisdom, so should be obeyed. But if they had known God as we do, they wouldn't have crucified Jesus."

But the author of Corinthians 2 says in verse 6 that these rulers are "coming to nothing". Other translations say these rulers are "passing away" or 'being destroyed". That doesn't sound very Roman-friendly. In fact, I imagine if the Roman authorities believed this passage was about them, the author of 1 Corinthians and any followers would have been arrested and charged with sedition.

I think they would have; and in fact, they did do that, despite Christians' protestations that they were good citizens over the next two hundred years.

Toto · 05-31-2010, 05:54 PM

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

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Originally Posted by Toto

Shooting from the hip again.

This is not mere speculation. There is a considerable body of scholarship indicating that "the rulers of this age" was a catch phrase referring to the demons who were supposed to be in control of the lower world.

JesusPuzzle

It should be noted that the demons probably work through human agency, so this phrase is (barely) consistent with the idea that Pilate had Jesus crucified under demonic influence - but the "rulers of this age" does refer to spiritual rulers.

The most logical way of dealing with the contradictions between Romans and 1 Corinthians is to recognize the possibility of later interpolations. The passage from 1 Thessalonians is generally regarded as an interpolation, both because it does not fit Paul's general philosophy and because it would date Paul to the post 70 CE period, based on the phrase after the one quoted.

When someone says, "many scholars," I take that as code for, "a slim minority of scholars."

If "many" scholars believed that the "rulers of this age" referred to spiritual rulers, then perhaps the evidence can be provided. I am not just going to take their word for it. If that is the way this game is played, then it should have ended long ago.

Do you mean a slim majority?

The evidence has been discussed here before, and, as with much Biblical interpretation, it is not definintive.

There is an archived question from Peter Kirby here with some extensive quotes.

Quote:

Origen interpreted the passage as referring to heavenly rulers (de Principiis 3.3), while Tertullian interpreted the passage as referring to earthly rulers (Against Marcion 5.6): "But (the apostle) evidently did not speak of spiritual princes; so that he meant secular ones, those of the princely people..."

There are several extracanonical texts that speak of Satan or demonic powers as being in ignorance concerning Christ during his life, such as Ignatius to the Ephesians 19:1, "And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord -- three mysteries to be cried aloud -- the which were wrought in the silence of God."

Here is the secondary literature that I have been able to find on the subject.

Paul Ellingworth and Howard Hatton write: "The second question, concerning the rulers of this age, does not affect translation into certain languages such as English. But translators into many other languages may have to decide whether the rulers are human or nonhuman. Verse 8 does not settle this question; the rulers of this age may be either people like Caiaphas, Pilate, and the Roman emperor, or the supernatural powers of evil which are ultimately responsible for Christ's death (compare Col 2.10, 15). A majority of scholars think that supernatural powers are intended here." (A Translator's Handbook on Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, p. 46)

Ellingworth and Hatton provide a footnote: "However, M. Pesce's detailed Paolo e gli arconti a Corinto (Brescia 1977) argues that the 'rulers' are the Jewish authorities. So do A.W. Carr, 1976, 'The rulers of this age--1 Corinthians 2:6-8,' New Testament Studies 23.20-35; and T. Ling, 1956, 'A note on 1 Corinthians ii.8,' Expository Times 68.26. Against this view, W.J.P. Boyd, 1957, '1 Corinthians ii.8,' Expository Times 68.158." (A Translator's Handbook on Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, p. 46)

Robertson and Plummer write: "Some Fathers and early writers, from Marcion (Tert. Marc. v. 6) downwards, understand the ARCONTES TOU AIWNOS TOUTOU to mean demons: cf. KOSMOKRATORAS TOU SKOTOUS TOU AIWNOS TOUTOU (Eph. vi. 12). Perhaps this idea exists already in Ignatius; ELAQEN TON ARCONTA [T. AIWNOS] TOUTOU . . . O QANATOS TOU KURIOU. See Thackeray, The Relation of St Paul to Contemporary Jewish Thought, pp. 156 f., 230 n. But this interpretation is wholly incompatible with v. 8, as also is the very perverse suggestion of Schmiedel that St Paul refers to Angels, whose rule over certain departments in God's government of the world belongs only to this dispensation, and ceases with it (KATARGOUMENWN), and who are unable to see into the mysteries of redemption (Gal. iii. 19; I Pet. i. 12). See Abbott, The Son of Man, p. 5." (A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the First Epistle of St Paul to the Corinthians, p. 37)

William Orr and James Walther write: "There seems to be no convincing reason to interpret 'this world's rulers' as being any other than those who actually took part in the condemnation and crucifixion of Jesus, and the wisdom they did not know was that their action would have a result exactly opposite to their intention: the ignominy of the cross was turned into the glory of redeeming lordship." (1 Corinthians)

Orr and Walther refer to a 1972 article in the Journal of Biblical Literature 91 by Gene Miller.

Leon Morris writes: "With unwearied persistence the apostle points out that the wisdom of which he speaks is not the wisdom of this age. He has been stressing this for some time and he now adds or of the rulers of this age. In antiquity, Origen took this to refer to the demonic powers behind world rulers, an interpretation which Chrysostom rejected, and this difference of opinion has persisted through the centuries. Among modern commentators Conzelmann, for example, sees a reference to the demons, while Orr and Walther think of earthly rulers. The 'demonic' view sees Christ as engaged in a gigantic struggle with evil forces of the unseen world, a view which is undoubtedly to be found in Paul's writings (e.g. Rom 8:38-39; Col. 2:15; cf. 2 Cor 4:4). But it may be doubted whether this is his meaning here. Three points are especially important. One is that throughout this whole passage the contrast is between the wisdom of God shown in the gospel and the wisdom of this world. To introduce now the thought of the wisdom of demonic powers is to bring in an extraneous concept, and one that is out of harmony with v. 9, which clearly refers to humans. Paul could scarcely have expected his readers to grasp this without one word of explanation. A second is that it was the rulers of this age who are said to have crucified Christ and this same word rulers, archontes, is repeatedly used of the Jewish and Roman leaders (Acts 3:17; 4:5,8,26; Rom. 13:3, etc.). The third is that it is explicitly said that they carried out the crucifixion in ignorance (Acts 3:17; 13:27; cf. Jn 16:3), but, by contrast, the demons are often said to have known who Jesus was when people did not (Mk. 1:24, 34, etc.). Paul habitually ascribes power to the demonic forces, but not ignorance. The very concept of a struggle between demonic forces and the power of God implies that the demons knew what they were up against. Paul's use of this age probably points to the transitory nature of the office of rulers, over against the truth of the gospel, which is permanent. This transitoriness is also in mind in the concluding who are coming to nothing (the verb is katargeo; see on 1:28). The rulers are being rendered completely ineffective; their vaunted power and wisdom are made null and void." (1 Corinthians, pp. 53-54)

aa5874 · 05-31-2010, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

If you object on the basis that Romans 13 contradicts 1 Corinthians 2, then, well, those two passages seem inconsistent with each other regardless of one interpretation or the other, do they not?

Yes they do. And just to muddle things up a bit more...

Did the "rulers of this age" kill Jesus or was it the Jews?

1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus.

Or maybe the author(s) of the Pauline epistles would have us believe that the Jews were the "rulers of this age"?

Ultimately it was Pilate who allowed the Jews to chose Barabbas over Jesus. Once Pilate, according to the story, found no fault with Jesus, then he should have set him free.

But in any event, I cannot accept that "rulers of this age" referred to "spiritual rulers" when the crucifixion of Jesus in the NT Gospels was done on earth.

All the Gospels claimed Jesus was crucified on earth under Pilate so if Jesus was crucified in heaven by spiritual rulers I guess the authors of the Gospels did NOT see the Pauline writings, did NOT attend any Pauline churches, were NOT influenced by Paul or just REJECTED Paul.

It is more likely that "rulers of this age" referred to "rulers on earth".

And further in the Gospels, Jesus was well-known in the "spirit world" as the Son of God.

Listen to the SPIRITS in gMark and hear the response from Jesus.

Makr 3:11 -

Quote:

And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

12 And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.

The "rulers of this age" if they were "spiritual rulers" would have known Jesus was the Son of God.

jgreen44 · 05-31-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The "rulers of this age" if they were "spiritual rulers" would have known Jesus was the Son of God.

And yet...

Ephesians 6:12

...our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

http://deusdiapente.blogspot.com/201...-this-age.html

mountainman · 05-31-2010, 08:35 PM

Have you had a look at what the Gnostics wrote? The Hypostasis of the Archons is actually subtitled "The Reality of the Rulers". The "rulers" are mentioned quite frequently in the Nag Hammadi library". From a political perspective the rulers of the first few centuries appear to have been the Romans. Their actions might be described as demonic, for example with respect to the 1st century BCE "outsiders", such the Gallic Celts - one million slain and one million enslaved under JC.

aa5874 · 06-01-2010, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The "rulers of this age" if they were "spiritual rulers" would have known Jesus was the Son of God.

And yet...

Ephesians 6:12

...our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

http://deusdiapente.blogspot.com/201...-this-age.html

But, we are dealing with the crucifixion of Jesus and whether he was crucified by "rulers on earth" or "spiritual rulers".

Jesus himself will give Paul a hint of his location.

Listen to a Pauline writer.

1 Corinthians 11:23-34 -

Quote:

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Just a few hours before Jesus was crucified he was betrayed in the night after he had supped and he was on earth with the apostles including Peter who Paul met in Jerusalem.

I think "rulers of this age" did not mean "spiritual rulers". Jesus was on earth with his disciples at the Last Supper and was betrayed in the night by a man NOT a spirit,by his own disciple called Judas. So the story goes.

jgreen44 · 06-01-2010, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I think "rulers of this age" did not mean "spiritual rulers". Jesus was on earth with his disciples at the Last Supper and was betrayed in the night by a man NOT a spirit,by his own disciple called Judas. So the story goes.

Another story goes like this: Inanna entered the underworld (lower world?) and was betrayed/deceived by its rulers. Everything was taken from her, including her garment. Recall that the robe of Christ was a motif of the passion story. Inanna was then judged and condemned to death. Her dead body was hung on a stake. After three days she rose again.

Mark 8:31

And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Text of Inanna's descent to the Nether World:

In Eridu upon his entering the house of Enki (Father of the Gods),

Before Enki he (Ninshubur, Inanna's messenger) weeps:

"O father Enki, let not thy daughter be put to death in the nether world,

Father Enki says:

"Upon the corpse hung from a stake direct the fear of the rays of fire,

Sixty times the food of life, sixty times the water of life, sprinkle upon it,

Verily Inanna will arise."

Inanna ascends from the nether world,

Acts 2:31

he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.

Text of Inanna's descent to the Nether World:

The (seven) Anunnaki fled,

The seven Anunnaki judged Inanna in the nethworld.

Mark 16:9

Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

Text of Inanna's descent to the Nether World:

(And) whoever of the nether world that had descended peacefully to the nether world;

When Inanna ascends from the nether world,

Verily the dead hasten ahead of her.

Matthew 27:50-53

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum08.htm

Revelation 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Cege · 06-01-2010, 07:18 AM

Quote:

I think "rulers of this age" did not mean "spiritual rulers". Jesus was on earth with his disciples at the Last Supper and was betrayed in the night by a man NOT a spirit,by his own disciple called Judas. So the story goes.

The story goes, according to gLuke and gJohn, that Satan entered into Judas, Satan being a spirit. Obviously the authors intended to convey that Judas was being 'ruled' by an evil spirit when he betrayed Jesus.

aa5874 · 06-01-2010, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Quote:

I think "rulers of this age" did not mean "spiritual rulers". Jesus was on earth with his disciples at the Last Supper and was betrayed in the night by a man NOT a spirit,by his own disciple called Judas. So the story goes.

The story goes, according to gLuke and gJohn, that Satan entered into Judas, Satan being a spirit. Obviously the authors intended to convey that Judas was being 'ruled' by an evil spirit when he betrayed Jesus.

Well, even 2000 pigs on earth were being "ruled by spirits" after the very spirits admitted that Jesus was the son of God.

Luke 8.27-29

Quote:

27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man.

Jesus was well-known in the "spirit world" even while on earth.

darstec · 06-01-2010, 03:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I believe Earl Doherty has speculated that the "rulers of this age" are demons. It seems to be purely ad hoc speculation, as demons seemingly were never otherwise thought to be rulers. ...

Shooting from the hip again.

This is not mere speculation. There is a considerable body of scholarship indicating that "the rulers of this age" was a catch phrase referring to the demons who were supposed to be in control of the lower world.

JesusPuzzle

Quote:

In 1 Corinthians 2:8 he tells us who crucified Jesus. Is it Pilate, the Romans, the Jews? No, it is "the rulers of this age (who) crucified the Lord of glory." Many scholars agree that he is referring not to temporal rulers but to the spirit and demonic forces—"powers and authorities" was the standard term— which inhabited the lower celestial spheres, part of the territory of "flesh." (See Paul Ellingworth, A Translator's Handbook for 1 Corinthians, p.46: "A majority of scholars think that supernatural powers are intended here." These include S. G. F. Brandon, C. K. Barrett, Jean Hering, Paula Fredriksen, S. D. F. Salmond, and it also included Ignatius and Marcion.) Colossians 2:15 can hardly refer to any historical event on Calvary.

It should be noted that the demons probably work through human agency, so this phrase is (barely) consistent with the idea that Pilate had Jesus crucified under demonic influence - but the "rulers of this age" does refer to spiritual rulers.

The most logical way of dealing with the contradictions between Romans and 1 Corinthians is to recognize the possibility of later interpolations. The passage from 1 Thessalonians is generally regarded as an interpolation, both because it does not fit Paul's general philosophy and because it would date Paul to the post 70 CE period, based on the phrase after the one quoted.

It should be noted that not only rulers but powers and several other categories of angels (demons if you prefer) are mentioned in the Epistles together ns more than one passage.

The exact duties/natures of the spirits can be found in Enoch where they are also mentioned (and there is no doubt they are angelic beings) and other Gnostic works, which I believe were created about the same time as the epistles and gospels found in the NT.

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05-31-2010, 08:35 PM	#15
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Have you had a look at what the Gnostics wrote? The Hypostasis of the Archons is actually subtitled "The Reality of the Rulers". The "rulers" are mentioned quite frequently in the Nag Hammadi library". From a political perspective the rulers of the first few centuries appear to have been the Romans. Their actions might be described as demonic, for example with respect to the 1st century BCE "outsiders", such the Gallic Celts - one million slain and one million enslaved under JC.

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