brianscott1977

Which theory concerning the writer(s) of Exodus are you using, and how do you know the writer(s) of Exodus did not believe in demons?

Minimalist

One of the bits copied from "Mark, I imagine.

Although your point about the Pharisees is interesting. One source attributes these positions to the Pharisees as opposed to the Sadducees.

Would seem that they should have been the natural allies of jesus.....if any of it actually happened.

darstec

Maybe he had an old, old copy of Gilgamesh. :devil:

andrewcriddle

However as aa5874 pointed out earlier in this thread, the miracles of Moses in Exodus are paralleled by the 'miracles' of Pharaoh's magicians.

And whatever the writers of Exodus believed, rabbinic midrash saw the conflict between Moses' wonders and those of the magicians as a conflict between wonders worked by God and wonders worked by demons.

Exodus 8:18-19 with its reference to the finger of God was seen as illustrating that God can do things which demons can't imitate.

This parallels pasages such as Luke 11:20 The whole dispute between Jesus and his opponents may involve his opponents implying that Jesus is working pseudo-miracles like Pharaoh's magicians not genuine miracles like Moses.

NB The rabbinic midrashim to which I referred above are late and it is not certain that these ideas go back to the time of Jesus.

Andrew Criddle

Chili

Good idea, and call it "The Resurrection of Ad Populum," by Johnny Skeptic.

darstec

With all due respect the devil is not mentioned in that Moses story. To see his involvement is a leap of faith.

andrewcriddle

My argument is that (late) rabbinic sources do see devils as involved in the Moses story and this (I suggested) may plausibly go back to the time of Jesus.

Whether or not the original authors of the Moses story intended it to be understood in this way is largely beside the point.

Andrew Criddle

The main rabbinic source I'm using is the late Midrash Exodus Rabbah

Chili

Yes Johnny, Moses did his miracles by the power of Beelzebub and miracles don't even belong in Egypt. So why do you think his bible passages could not sustain in the promised land other than Moses being an evangelist leading the children of Isreal into a state of mind where they did not belong?

The secret here it walk on top the water instead of parting the water to get there.

Johnny Skeptic

The Pharisees believed the Old Testament. The Old Testament apparently always attributes healings to God. The texts say that Jesus healed sick people. If Jesus healed sick people, it is probable that the Pharisees believed that Jesus healed sick people by the power of God. If they believed that Jesus healed sick people by the power of God, there are not any good reasons why they would not have also believed that Jesus cast out demons by the power of God. Healing sick people and casting out demons are both good things. It would not be reasonable to assume that God would have given Jesus the power to heal sick people if Jesus was casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub.

It would be ridiculous for Beelzebub to give people the power to cast out his fellow evil beings, in which case God would have gotten the credit, thereby attracting more people to God. Why would Beelzebub get rid of a problem that he created?

If the Pharisees were expecting a powerful messiah to come, it is reasonable to assume that they would not have objected if a messiah cast out demons, healed sick people, and helped people in other ways. The most logical conclusion is that Jesus did not cast out demons, and did not heal sick people.

rizdek

I agree. That is one of the keystones of why I reject the NT. IF the folks that knew the OT scripture didn't see the messiahship of Jesus when they were right there watching and really wanting it to happen, why should I now? What's more likely a few folks came to believe it happened based on the rumor mill or it (the virgin birth to the resurrection ascension) happened and no one except a handful of devout followers managed to catch it?