Johnny Skeptic

Matthew says that the Pharisees believed that Jesus performed miracles by the power of Beelzebub. That is very unlikely since the Pharisees must have believed that Moses performed many miracles in Egypt, and thus would probably have been quite pleased if a supposed messiah also performed miracles.

As far as I know, the Old Testament never says that evil beings can heal people, and always attributes healings to God.

brianscott1977

In Matthew 9:34 and 12:24 the Pharisees said that Jesus cast out demon by the power of Beelzebub. I am aware of no other miracles attributed the Lord of the Flies, nor can I think of a time when Moses cast out demons. Comparing miracles of Moses (which the Pharisees accepted) to Jesus casting out demons does not seem to be an accurate analogy.

Do you know of a time when the Pharisees accused Jesus of healing by the power of Beelzebub?

Johnny Skeptic

But the issue is not comparing miracles, but where the power to perform miracles came from. The texts say that Jesus not only cast out demons, but also that he healed many people who were sick. As far as I know, the Old Testament always attributes healings to God. If the Old Testament always attributes healings to God, it is very probable that the Pharisees believed that Jesus healed people by the power of God. If the Pharisees believed that Jesus healed people by the power of God, it is also probable that they believed that Jesus cast of demons by the power of God.

If the Pharisees believed that demons were evil, which must have been the case, then they would have been pleased if Jesus cast out demons. Why would Beelzebub give Jesus the power to cast out his fellow evil beings and allow God to get the credit? That does not make any sense.

Logically, the Pharisees would have attributed good things to God, and evil things to evil beings. Demons are evil, and healing sick people is good.

Do you believe that a global flood occured? If so, we can discuss that issue at the Evolution/Creation forum.

schriverja

Johnny, are you ever more than a half of a post away from talking about the global flood??

Johnny Skeptic

Sorry, it is just that it is difficult for me to resist mentioning the global flood since the claim is easy to disprove. Many people on both sides are quite interested in the global flood story.

schriverja

You don't have to apologize, I think it is amusing. I'm thinking of starting a thread about how many times you mention the flood in any given thread. Maybe percentages of flood posts versus total posts and the like...:Cheeky:

aa5874

Evil beings are supposed to deceive people. They perhaps heal you first and then maybe destroy you later.

In any event, it would appear that people in antiquity were polytheistic. There were many weaker Gods and perhaps one God greater than all.

If the MAGIC-SHOWDOWN FABLE between Moses and Pharoah is examined it will be noted that the Egyptian Gods could match the MAGIC of the God of Moses in many instances.

The MAGIC-SHOWDOWN FABLE signifies that people of antiquity did believe that there were more than one God that could do MAGIC.

But, the author of Exodus made a disastrous blunder.

His MAGIC-SHOWDOWN FABLE miraculously BLEW UP (self-destruct).

Examine the MAGIC FABLE from Exodus 7.20-22.
IF the rod of Moses turned all the waters in the river were turned to blood and all the fish had died, and there was blood throughout all the LAND OF Egypt, then it was NOT POSSIBLE for the Egyptian magicians to do the same.

And it is not even likely or most ridiculous that the magicians of Egypt would have turned all the river into blood, killing the fish and deprived themselves, Pharoah and Egyptians of water to drink.

brianscott1977

In this case the issue is not miracles in general, but the specific issue of casting out demons. The Pharisees appear to think that since Jesus is ordering demons around he must be getting his power from the Prince of demons. From the Pharisees point of view I can see how they got to that assumption, but no other miracles are brought into this discussion.





I respectfully decline your offer to debate the global flood. I have also noticed that you bring it up a lot, which is fine, but it is not a big issue for me.

Personally, the pervasive nature of flood stories (a flood greater than normal floods) throughout ancient mythology convinces me that something happened. For a variety of theological issues that I don’t feel like getting into, it does not matter to me if this was a literal world flood, or if it just seemed that way at the time.

I have read the historical/scientific evidence both in favor and against a world flood. Based solely on that information it seems that a world flood was unlikely. However, the evidence is not so strong as to say a world flood was impossible.

That’s my opinion. I accept that you disagree, but as I said it is just not important enough of an issue to me to warrant time spent in debate. Thanks for offering.

Johnny Skeptic

There were not any good reasons for the Pharisees to believe that Jesus cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub.

Consider the following possibilities:

1. The Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub, and that Jesus healed sick people by the power of Beelzebub.

2. The Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub, and that Jesus healed sick people by the power of God.

3. The Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons by the power of God, and that Jesus healed sick people by the power of God.

Only item 3 makes sense. Regarding item 1, since the Old Testament apparently always attributes healing to God, it is probable that the Pharisees believed that Jesus healed sick people by the power of God. Regarding item 2, it is very doubtful that the Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub, and that Jesus healed sick people by the power of God. The Pharisees believed the Old Testament. Since they believed that God gave Moses the power to perform miracles, they would have believed that God gave Jesus the power to cast out demons, especially since they believed that demons are evil.

Johnny Skeptic

But apparently the Old Testament always attributes healings to God.

Why would demons heal people? If they healed people, God would get the credit. Demons would want people to hate God, not love him.