Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-05-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...

Just as the movement to hellenize judaism eventually led to the Greeks attacking the Jews so the movement to placate Rome failed and the led to Israel's destruction. ....

This is a very strange reading of history. The "Greeks" did not attack the Jews - the Roman Empire did, and not because the Jews became Hellenistic, but because they rejected Roman rule.

Myles Kantor does not support your conclusion. He appears to be a radical libertarian writing on a paleo-conservative website in opposition to all government action.

But since we all seem to now agree that there were no Jewish Roman Senators, perhaps we can wind this thread down?

arnoldo · 05-05-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...

Just as the movement to hellenize judaism eventually led to the Greeks attacking the Jews so the movement to placate Rome failed and the led to Israel's destruction. ....[/URL]

This is a very strange reading of history. The "Greeks" did not attack the Jews - the Roman Empire did, and not because the Jews became Hellenistic, but because they rejected Roman rule.

Before the Romans attacked the Jews in the first century A.D., Antiochus attacked the Jews in the year 168 B.C. Josephus writes;

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. Now Antiochus, upon the agreeable situation of the affairs of his kingdom, resolved to make an expedition against Egypt, both because he had a desire to gain it, and because he contemned the son of Ptolemy, as now weak, and not yet of abilities to manage affairs of such consequence; so he came with great forces to Pelusium, and circumvented Ptolemy Philometor by treachery, and seized upon Egypt. He then came to the places about Memphis; and when he had taken them, he made haste to Alexandria, in hopes of taking it by siege, and of subduing Ptolemy, who reigned there. But he was driven not only from Alexandria, but out of all Egypt, by the declaration of the Romans, who charged him to let that country alone; according as I have elsewhere formerly declared. I will now give a particular account of what concerns this king, how he subdued Judea and the temple; for in my former work I mentioned those things very briefly, and have therefore now thought it necessary to go over that history again, and that with great accuracy.

3. King Antiochus returning out of Egypt (16) for fear of the Romans, made an expedition against the city Jerusalem; and when he was there, in the hundred and forty-third year of the kingdom of the Seleucidse, he took the city without fighting, those of his own party opening the gates to him. And when he had gotten possession of Jerusalem, he slew many of the opposite party; and when he had plundered it of a great deal of money, he returned to Antioch.

4. Now it came to pass, after two years, in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of that month which is by us called Chasleu, and by the Macedonians Apelleus, in the hundred and fifty-third olympiad, that the king came up to Jerusalem, and, pretending peace, he got possession of the city by treachery; at which time he spared not so much as those that admitted him into it, on account of the riches that lay in the temple; but, led by his covetous inclination, (for he saw there was in it a great deal of gold, and many ornaments that had been dedicated to it of very great value,) and in order to plunder its wealth, he ventured to break the league he had made. So he left the temple bare, and took away the golden candlesticks, and the golden altar [of incense], and table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of burnt-offering]; and did not abstain from even the veils, which were made of fine linen and scarlet. He also emptied it of its secret treasures, and left nothing at all remaining; and by this means cast the Jews into great lamentation, for he forbade them to offer those daily sacrifices which they used to offer to God, according to the law. And when he had pillaged the whole city, some of the inhabitants he slew, and some he carried captive, together with their wives and children, so that the multitude of those captives that were taken alive amounted to about ten thousand. He also burnt down the finest buildings; and when he had overthrown the city walls, he built a citadel in the lower part of the city, (17) for the place was high, and overlooked the temple; on which account he fortified it with high walls and towers, and put into it a garrison of Macedonians. However, in that citadel dwelt the impious and wicked part of the [Jewish] multitude, from whom it proved that the citizens suffered many and sore calamities. And when the king had built an idol altar upon God's altar, he slew swine upon it, and so offered a sacrifice neither according to the law, nor the Jewish religious worship in that country. He also compelled them to forsake the worship which they paid their own God, and to adore those whom he took to be gods; and made them build temples, and raise idol altars in every city and village, and offer swine upon them every day. He also commanded them not to circumcise their sons, and threatened to punish any that should be found to have transgressed his injunction. He also appointed overseers, who should compel them to do what he commanded. And indeed many Jews there were who complied with the king's commands, either voluntarily, or out of fear of the penalty that was denounced. But the best men, and those of the noblest souls, did not regard him, but did pay a greater respect to the customs of their country than concern as to the punishment which he threatened to the disobedient; on which account they every day underwent great miseries and bitter torments; for they were whipped with rods, and their bodies were torn to pieces, and were crucified, while they were still alive, and breathed. They also strangled those women and their sons whom they had circumcised, as the king had appointed, hanging their sons about their necks as they were upon the crosses. And if there were any sacred book of the law found, it was destroyed, and those with whom they were found miserably perished also.
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-12.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Myles Kantor does not support your conclusion. He appears to be a radical libertarian writing on a paleo-conservative website in opposition to all government action.

Would you agree that the website cited gave accurate historical information on the jews regardless of his standing as a radical libertarian?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/kantor/kantor76.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But since we all seem to now agree that there were no Jewish Roman Senators, perhaps we can wind this thread down?

Agreed.

storytime · 05-05-2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Romans were not always "haters" of Jewish people. Jewish people lived in peace among Romans at times and just as they lived among Egyptians and Syrians. Why do you want to present Jews as a forever persecuted people?

Just as the movement to hellenize judaism eventually led to the Greeks attacking the Jews so the movement to placate Rome failed and the led to Israel's destruction. Currently there is a process in Israel to appease certain "radical elements" however history has shown the results of such appeasment. History also shows that the Romans were not friends of the orthodox jews. Note the following passage from: Jewish Literacy: The Most Important Things to Know About the Jewish Religion, It's People, and Its History (Rabbi Joseph Telushkin); (or via: amazon.co.uk)

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At the beginning of the Common Era, a new group arose among the Jews: the Zealots (in Hebrew, Ka-na-im). These anti-roman rebels were active for more than six decades, and later instigated the Great Revolt. Their most basic belief was that all means were justified to attain political and religou liberty.

The Jews' anti-Roman feelings were seriously exacerbated during the reign of the half-crazed emperor Caligula, who in the year 39 declared himself to be a deity and ordered his statue to be set up at every temple in the Roman Empire. The Jew, alone in the empire, refused the command; the would not defile God's Temple with a statue of pagan Rome's newest deity.

Caligula threatened to destroy the Temple, so a delegation of Jew was sent to pacify him. To no avail. Caligula raged at them, "So you are the enemies of the gods, the only people who refuse to recognized my divinity."

Myles Kantor sums up this relation between Jewish History and the Romans rather succiently in the following article when he asks;
What lesson should Jews draw from this chapter in their history? The State isn’t our friend.

I think the lesson learned from history is that "the state" could never be called a friend to Jewish religion due to Jewish laws being in opposition to the state. But Romans were diversified in many religions, the Jewish religion being part of the mix.

Why is it viewed that the "orthodox" Jews were always in the right to religious liberty in the Roman state of many gods? The Romans were in power, not the Jews. It would not be religious liberty as in freedom of worship but that the state wanted their gods recognized by the Jews. This then caused militant actions and uprisings against the state. Not that Jews could not worship their own god but because Jews did not show honor[worship] to the Roman gods, and therefore Jews could not be friends to the state, or any state for that matter. Their religious laws always prohibited friendship to any state religions.

arnoldo · 05-05-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Just as the movement to hellenize judaism eventually led to the Greeks attacking the Jews so the movement to placate Rome failed and led to Israel's destruction. Currently there is a process in Israel to appease certain "radical elements" however history has shown the results of such appeasment. History also shows that the Romans were not friends of the orthodox jews. Note the following passage from: Jewish Literacy: The Most Important Things to Know About the Jewish Religion, It's People, and Its History (Rabbi Joseph Telushkin); (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

At the beginning of the Common Era, a new group arose among the Jews: the Zealots (in Hebrew, Ka-na-im). These anti-roman rebels were active for more than six decades, and later instigated the Great Revolt. Their most basic belief was that all means were justified to attain political and religous liberty.

The Jews' anti-Roman feelings were seriously exacerbated during the reign of the half-crazed emperor Caligula, who in the year 39 declared himself to be a deity and ordered his statue to be set up at every temple in the Roman Empire. The Jew, alone in the empire, refused the command; the would not defile God's Temple with a statue of pagan Rome's newest deity.

Caligula threatened to destroy the Temple, so a delegation of Jew was sent to pacify him. To no avail. Caligula raged at them, "So you are the enemies of the gods, the only people who refuse to recognized my divinity."

Myles Kantor sums up this relation between Jewish History and the Romans rather succiently in the following article when he asks;
What lesson should Jews draw from this chapter in their history? The State isn’t our friend.

I think the lesson learned from history is that "the state" could never be called a friend to Jewish religion due to Jewish laws being in opposition to the state. But Romans were diversified in many religions, the Jewish religion being part of the mix.

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Why is it viewed that the "orthodox" Jews were always in the right to religious liberty in the Roman state of many gods?

Why should the Jews worship a Roman Emperor as a "god?" The Romans certiainly had the might to force the Jews to place idols in their temples however that did not make it right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

The Romans were in power, not the Jews. It would not be religious liberty as in freedom of worship but that the state wanted their gods recognized by the Jews.

That's why most democratic countries currently have seperation between church and state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

This then caused militant actions and uprisings against the state. Not that Jews could not worship their own god but because Jews did not show honor[worship] to the Roman gods, and therefore Jews could not be friends to the state, or any state for that matter. Their religious laws always prohibited friendship to any state religions.

Whenever other state religions be it Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, etc demanded the jews to worship their gods the jews would never compromise for better or worse.

sugarhitman · 05-06-2009, 06:25 AM

Well it looks like we are all in agreement....there were no Roman Jewish Senators....so Storytime's story (conspiracy theory) has been, in the words of my generation...."ghosted".

semiopen · 05-06-2009, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Well it looks like we are all in agreement....there were no Roman Jewish Senators....so Storytime's story (conspiracy theory) has been, in the words of my generation...."ghosted".

There is not an absolute certainity that Paul existed. If he didn't exist the existence of Jewish Roman Senators during his lifetime is nonsense.

As I menioned earlier, you have not replied to your colleague IAMJoseph's questioning of the historicity of his existence.

bacht · 05-06-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Whenever other state religions be it Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, etc demanded the jews to worship their gods the jews would never compromise for better or worse.

otoh the Jews seem to have fared well under the Persians, I'm not sure if Zoroastrianism was considered the "state religion" for them

Also the Hellenistic Ptolemies didn't really bother the Jews did they?

arnoldo · 05-06-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Whenever other state religions be it Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, etc demanded the jews to worship their gods the jews would never compromise for better or worse.

otoh the Jews seem to have fared well under the Persians, I'm not sure if Zoroastrianism was considered the "state religion" for them

The Persians were spoken of quite well in the Old Testament writings with freeing the Jews from Babylon and allowing them to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.

Quote:

2 Chron. 36: Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Also the Hellenistic Ptolemies didn't really bother the Jews did they?

It's true that some Jews became hellenized and wanted to live peacably with the greeks, however the orthodox jews rebelled as documented in the following verse.

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Then Mattathias answered and spake with a loud voice, Though all the nations that are under the king's dominion obey him, and fall away every one from the religion of their fathers, and give consent to his commandments:
[2] Yet will I and my sons and my brethren walk in the covenant of our fathers.
[21] God forbid that we should forsake the law and the ordinances.
[22] We will not hearken to the king's words, to go from our religion, either on the right hand, or the left.
[23] Now when he had left speaking these words, there came one of the Jews in the sight of all to sacrifice on the altar which was at Modin, according to the king's commandment.
[24] Which thing when Mattathias saw, he was inflamed with zeal, and his reins trembled, neither could he forbear to shew his anger according to judgment: wherefore he ran, and slew him upon the altar.
[25] Also the king's commissioner, who compelled men to sacrifice, he killed at that time, and the altar he pulled down.
[26] Thus dealt he zealously for the law of God like as Phinees did unto Zambri the son of Salom.
[27] And Mattathias cried throughout the city with a loud voice, saying, Whosoever is zealous of the law, and maintaineth the covenant, let him follow me.
[28] So he and his sons fled into the mountains, and left all that ever they had in the city.
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/1maccabees.html

Currently, orthodox jews also are dismayed that the Secular Jewish state is forcing settlers off their own land and giving in to the cries of creating a seperate state within Israel. Prime Minister Shamir warns of the folly of appeasment in light of Israel's history;

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There are those who say...that the true owners of the land are the rioters,the murders and the terrorists, who seek to destroy any remnant of the Jewish people in the land of Israel. We say to them--when we look from here on the thousands of years of our past and all that we have established in the present--that they are grasshoppers in our sight.

Toto · 05-06-2009, 03:31 PM

We agree that there were no Roman Jewish Senators in the first century. If you are going to turn this thread into modern political propaganda, it will be closed, at a minimum.

sugarhitman · 05-08-2009, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Whenever other state religions be it Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, etc demanded the jews to worship their gods the jews would never compromise for better or worse.

otoh the Jews seem to have fared well under the Persians, I'm not sure if Zoroastrianism was considered the "state religion" for them

Also the Hellenistic Ptolemies didn't really bother the Jews did they?

Yeah the Jews fared well under the Persians, but then the Persians didn't seek to defile the Jews temple either. But again the Persians under Hamon sought to exterminate the Jews.

The Greeks and the Romans both sought to defile the temple of the Jews to force them into worshipping their gods...and ofcourse the Jews resisted which made them a stench in the nose of the Romans and the Greeks that continued down to modern times of their descendants....the Europeans.

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05-06-2009, 06:25 AM	#45
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Well it looks like we are all in agreement....there were no Roman Jewish Senators....so Storytime's story (conspiracy theory) has been, in the words of my generation...."ghosted".

05-06-2009, 03:31 PM	#49
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	We agree that there were no Roman Jewish Senators in the first century. If you are going to turn this thread into modern political propaganda, it will be closed, at a minimum.

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