Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 12-06-2011, 05:02 PM

In 2007 April Deconick seriously questioned the English translation of the Coptic text that was first published 2006 by National Geographic. From the New York Times article - the “Gospel Truth” - of December 1, 2007:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deconick on gJudas

Judas is not a hero, he is a demon. Judas is not set apart “for” the holy generation, as the National Geographic translation says, he is separated “from” it. According to the National Geographic translation, Judas’s ascent to the holy generation would be cursed. In fact, the original states that Judas will “not ascend to the holy generation.”

So what does the Gospel of Judas really say? It says that Judas is a specific demon called the “Thirteenth.” In certain Gnostic traditions, this is the given name of the king of demons — an entity known as Ialdabaoth who lives in the 13th realm above the earth. Judas is his human alter ego, his undercover agent in the world. These Gnostics equated Ialdabaoth with the Hebrew Yahweh, whom they saw as a jealous and wrathful deity and an opponent of the supreme God whom Jesus came to earth to reveal.

Whoever wrote the Gospel of Judas was a harsh critic of mainstream Christianity and its rituals. Because Judas is a demon working for Ialdabaoth, the author believed, when Judas sacrifices Jesus he does so to the demons, not to the supreme God. This mocks mainstream Christians’ belief in the atoning value of Jesus’ death and in the effectiveness of the Eucharist.

How could these serious mistakes have been made? Were they genuine errors or was something more deliberate going on? This is the question of the hour, and I do not have a satisfactory answer

In all seriousness, setting Irenaeus aside for one moment, is it possible that the figure of Judas in the gJudas as the "Thirteenth Demon" is polemical treatment of an historical identity of the 4th century who insisted that he be remembered in history as the "Thirteenth Apostle"?

"Gnostic texts use parody and satire quite frequently ...
making fun of traditional biblical beliefs""

April Deconick

The question here is whether a gnostic author is satirizing the "Thirteenth Apostle" (Constantine was buried as the Thirteenth Apostle) by having him represent Judas who is the "Thirteenth Demon" and Apostle of Jesus and the Christian Monotheistic Church. The gnostic author is seeing the rise of the monotheistioc christian state religious cult, and the dismantlement and destruction of the Greek intellectul tradition and theological and philosophical schools and its achitecture (temples and libraries, etc). The gnotic author equates Constantine with a betrayal of the pagan traditions. To the pagan, Constantine is a betraying demon to the pagan conceotual framework - in fact "The Thirteenth Demon".

Does anyone understand and/or perceive this pagan polemic? Comments?

stephan huller · 12-06-2011, 05:50 PM

I've spoken with April about this before. The thirteenth apostle is the traditional epithet of St. Mark in Alexandria.

mountainman · 12-06-2011, 07:34 PM

Constantine provided for his own burial - his sarcophagus was to be placed in the Church of the Holy Apostles, which was surrounded by the memorial steles of the Twelve Apostles, making him symbolically the thirteenth Apostle. He is often referred to as such by historians (perhaps not Biblical Historians).

Constantine: history, historiography, and legend By Samuel N. C. Lieu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel LIEU

Constantine was commemorated as an isapostolos - the the thirteenth apostle,
who's joint feast-day with his mother Helena was (and still is) celebrated on 21 May.

Chili · 12-06-2011, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

In

In all seriousness, setting Irenaeus aside for one moment, is it possible that the figure of Judas in the gJudas as the "Thirteenth Demon" is polemical treatment of an historical identity of the 4th century who insisted that he be remembered in history as the "Thirteenth Apostle"?

"Gnostic texts use parody and satire quite frequently ...
making fun of traditional biblical beliefs""

April Deconick

The question here is whether a gnostic author is satirizing the "Thirteenth Apostle" (Constantine was buried as the Thirteenth Apostle) by having him represent Judas who is the "Thirteenth Demon" and Apostle of Jesus and the Christian Monotheistic Church. The gnostic author is seeing the rise of the monotheistioc christian state religious cult, and the dismantlement and destruction of the Greek intellectul tradition and theological and philosophical schools and its achitecture (temples and libraries, etc). The gnotic author equates Constantine with a betrayal of the pagan traditions. To the pagan, Constantine is a betraying demon to the pagan conceotual framework - in fact "The Thirteenth Demon".

Does anyone understand and/or perceive this pagan polemic? Comments?

The centralization of religion in Rome directed all the knoweldge retained (Gen.3:6) by the collective soul of many different nations to Rome, which so created an enormous tower of wisdom that can use the ancient Greek intellectuals, including philosophies and architecture as footpillows to walk all over them, and still today as there has not been any greater since. Notice maybe that all the churches in Christendom are for sinners with the confessionals to prove that except Vatican City itself.

That Constantine was the 13th apostle is not a problem nor does it matter how they buried him, . . . and to feel sorry for pagan religions is like giving them a fish, or maybe two, and more if they are hungry and provide school for them so they can learn on day 1 of Anthro 101 that the mythology is for the survival of the nation and that the prosperity of the civilization can be measured by the complexity of its mythology . . . and then go help them built their own church as a constitutional right because intelligence thinks we should.

mountainman · 12-07-2011, 06:54 AM

Informative treatments on Deconick's retranslation of gJudas by Vridar:

What the Gospel of Judas Really Says — April DeConick’s new book

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRIDAR

2.Secondly, for most of us who have read the National Geographic translation of the Gospel of Judas, be prepared for a radical re-think of what we have read there. The National Geographic translation depicts Judas as the only true saint; DeConick’s, as the arch demon himself — or at least destined to join with him in the end.

3.Which immediately raises the question: Why would a gospel make the central character a demon? DeConick shows how the apparent structure and thematic development of the gospel aligns it with an agenda opposing that Christianity that traced its genealogy back to the Twelve Apostles. Like the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Judas was a parody and attack on apostolic Christianity and its doctrine of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.

Gospel of Judas — Opposing translations and their significance

Roger's The Coptic Ps.Gospel of Judas (Iscariot)

An Interview with April DeConick about the Gospel of Judas

Quote:

Who do you think wrote the Gospel? Why do you think they wrote it?

The Gospel of Judas was written by Gnostic Christians called Sethians in the mid-second century. They wrote it to criticize Apostolic or mainstream Christianity, which they understood to be a form of Christianity that needed to reassess its faith. Particularly troubling for these Gnostic Christians was the Apostolic belief in the atonement, because this meant that God would have had to commit infanticide by sacrificing the Son. They wrote the Gospel of Judas to prove that this could not be the case. Why? Because Judas was a demon who worked for another demon who rules this world and whose name is Ialdabaoth. How did they know this? Because Jesus had revealed this to Judas before Judas betrayed him. That is the bottom line. That is what this gospel says.

What do you think this manuscript tells us about early Christianity? Why is the Gospel of Judas important?

This gospel’s voice is different. It represents the opinions of Christians in the second century who came to be labeled as “heretical” by later bishops who wished to gain control of the religious landscape. Because this is a Gnostic Christian tradition that did not survive, the chance find of this gospel has let us tune into a second century discussion about theology. And the voice we are hearing is the voice of the guy who lost the debate.

Not only is the recovery and integration of this voice into our history important, but also its contribution to Christian theology, which is enormous. The challenge against atonement theology as it is presented in the Gospel of Judas is a challenge that rocked the Apostolic Churches, forcing them to refine and recreate their position. The end result is a doctrine of atonement that became very popular in the Christian Church, a doctrine that understood the sacrifice of Jesus as a ransom paid to the Devil. This doctrine exists as a response to the Gnostic criticisms of atonement that we find in the Gospel of Judas

Littlejohn · 12-07-2011, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Who do you think wrote the Gospel? Why do you think they wrote it?

The Gospel of Judas was written by Gnostic Christians called Sethians in the mid-second century. They wrote it to criticize Apostolic or mainstream Christianity, which they understood to be a form of Christianity that needed to reassess its faith. Particularly troubling for these Gnostic Christians was the Apostolic belief in the atonement, because this meant that God would have had to commit infanticide by sacrificing the Son. They wrote the Gospel of Judas to prove that this could not be the case. Why? Because Judas was a demon who worked for another demon who rules this world and whose name is Ialdabaoth. How did they know this? Because Jesus had revealed this to Judas before Judas betrayed him. That is the bottom line. That is what this gospel says.
.

.

I recommend you carefully consider the Gospel of Judas, by comparing its content to that found in other literary sources: the only way you can realize the REAL reason for this aversion, by the clerical and pro-clerical sector, to the Gospel of Judas . Finally, I would like to emphasize, as I have done on other occasions, the fact that the 'Judas Iscariot' character is a FICTIONAL character, fraudulently created by forger 'fathers' of the origins for hide behind it another 'hot' character ..

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

mountainman · 12-07-2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

Finally, I would like to emphasize, as I have done on other occasions, the fact that the 'Judas Iscariot' character is a FICTIONAL character, fraudulently created by forger 'fathers' of the origins for hide behind it another 'hot' character ..

The fictional Canonical story containing references to the 'Judas Iscariot' character seems to have been lavishly published by Constantine who wanted himself to be known as the "Thirteenth Apostle". Setting aside Eusebius's citation of Irenaeus, it would seem that some harsh CONTEMPORARY critic of Constantine's agenda could have published another (fictional) story entitled "The Gospel of Judas" where Judas is presented as the "Thirteenth Demon" who betrays the entire generation.

Is the Gnostic heretic who authored gJudas casting Constantine (the Thirteenth Apostle) as Judas (the Thirteenth Demon) - betrayer of the Egypto-Graeco-Roman (i.e. "pagan") traditions?

The Deconick Translation of gJudas

This is a substantially different story. Does anyone know whether there are plans to place other English translations of the Coptic (besides the faulty National Geographic one) in the public domain?

andrewcriddle · 12-08-2011, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I've spoken with April about this before. The thirteenth apostle is the traditional epithet of St. Mark in Alexandria.

The Patriarch of Alexandria is indeed called the thirteenth apostle; it is not certain whether this is based on his being the successor of St. Mark.

See Condemnation of Nicon

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 12-08-2011, 01:17 PM

That's absolutely fascinating Andrew. And because I have tendency to read into material what I want to get from it, let me ask my fellows here - am I correct in assuming that the author is saying here that the title derives from Paul rather than Mark?

Quote:

"Since then, among the apostles, the herald of the Gentiles, Paul, is, and is called, a thirteenth apostle, so in like manner every patriarch, on account of the ministry of teaching belonging to the patriarchal power, may be called a thirteenth apostle, in a word, an imitator, follower and successor of St Paul"

If this is true it could be argued to a very powerful hint that the Alexandrian Patriarchate was once associated with the Marcionite apostle given that Athanasius is for all intents and purposes the first historical Patriarch of Alexandria of whom we know anything about and (b) the Alexandrian tradition attributed the title to Mark ultimately.

In other words Mark = Paul in the earliest period. There are other proofs that go along with this but it is my usual nonsense.

stephan huller · 12-08-2011, 01:38 PM

And I am sure here is where I lose my audience but the number 13 is very significant in Judaism. The obvious beginning being that it is half of YHWH (= 26) and God is inevitably portrayed as being a unified being - i.e. one (אחד = 13) made up of two halves bound by love (אהבה = 13).

This is not something I just made up. A Jewish boy takes his bar mitzvah at thirteen years of age (a girl twelve). Maimonides speaks of thirteen principles of faith. There were also the thirteen rules of Rabbi Ishmael were generally adopted as authoritative rules for Talmudic interpretation - "there are thirteen principles [middot] by which the Torah is expounded." Rabbi Ishamael was a Sadducee and thus the tradition is very old and authoritative. And there is a well established mystical interpretation of the Shema is based on the gematria above:

Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one Deut 6:4

שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד

The statement that haShem is echad is inevitably interpreted mystically as God is thirteen. The reason for this is - as Genesius demonstrates - that echad can mean a compound unity (Hebrew/Chaldea dictionary p. 28) rather than 'single one.' It is for this reason (i.e. because of its pluralistic implications) that Maimonides used the word yechad rather than echad to describe God's being.

Indeed Jews usually use Deut 6:4 to demonstrate why the Christian concept of the Trinity contradicts the singular unity of God when even many Jewish mystical traditions argue the exact opposite through the implications of echad.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VSw...0echad&f=false

Remember also that Mosheh (Moses) = haShem or Shemah (God, the divine name in Jewish and Samaritan traditions) so the godhead is always mystically portrayed as a compound of two thirteens or some mystical formula involving the number 13. One could make a very persuasive case that the number 13 was verboten in Christian circles BECAUSE it was so significant to Jewish and Samaritan mysticism.

For what its worth the number thirteen in Hebrew is literally 'three-ten' (much like our English word thir-teen). The name Judah (Judas) has a gematria of thirty = 3 x10. If you change the vav of 'three' into a yod (= shaliysh) you get 'Lord' 'royal officer' etc.

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12-06-2011, 05:50 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I've spoken with April about this before. The thirteenth apostle is the traditional epithet of St. Mark in Alexandria.

12-08-2011, 01:38 PM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And I am sure here is where I lose my audience but the number 13 is very significant in Judaism. The obvious beginning being that it is half of YHWH (= 26) and God is inevitably portrayed as being a unified being - i.e. one (אחד = 13) made up of two halves bound by love (אהבה = 13). This is not something I just made up. A Jewish boy takes his bar mitzvah at thirteen years of age (a girl twelve). Maimonides speaks of thirteen principles of faith. There were also the thirteen rules of Rabbi Ishmael were generally adopted as authoritative rules for Talmudic interpretation - "there are thirteen principles [middot] by which the Torah is expounded." Rabbi Ishamael was a Sadducee and thus the tradition is very old and authoritative. And there is a well established mystical interpretation of the Shema is based on the gematria above: Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one Deut 6:4 שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד The statement that haShem is echad is inevitably interpreted mystically as God is thirteen. The reason for this is - as Genesius demonstrates - that echad can mean a compound unity (Hebrew/Chaldea dictionary p. 28) rather than 'single one.' It is for this reason (i.e. because of its pluralistic implications) that Maimonides used the word yechad rather than echad to describe God's being. Indeed Jews usually use Deut 6:4 to demonstrate why the Christian concept of the Trinity contradicts the singular unity of God when even many Jewish mystical traditions argue the exact opposite through the implications of echad. http://books.google.com/books?id=VSw...0echad&f=false Remember also that Mosheh (Moses) = haShem or Shemah (God, the divine name in Jewish and Samaritan traditions) so the godhead is always mystically portrayed as a compound of two thirteens or some mystical formula involving the number 13. One could make a very persuasive case that the number 13 was verboten in Christian circles BECAUSE it was so significant to Jewish and Samaritan mysticism. For what its worth the number thirteen in Hebrew is literally 'three-ten' (much like our English word thir-teen). The name Judah (Judas) has a gematria of thirty = 3 x10. If you change the vav of 'three' into a yod (= shaliysh) you get 'Lord' 'royal officer' etc.

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