Lugubert

Please remember that some of us have non-US perspectives. I've already told you that I don't know the beliefs of my OT/NT teachers (or for that matter, on othr religions). I know that the teacher on Sikhism has converted to Sikhism, but not even a microscope could detect any bias in her teachings.

Likewise Bible Hebrew (BH). One teacher is active in her community as a cantor (her voice is as lovely as her exterior), but sticks 100% to language only in classes. She's very open to challenging traditional translations, regardless of what any faith argue. Another one teaches modern Hebrew, but (ridiculously IMO) based more than 1/2 of the latest test on Christian words and notions on Christmas, and non-OT stories. My third BH teacher was an expert on the Govt. multifaith committee responsible for our new "Bibel 2000". I have no idea of his viewson faith, but am quite happy that he consistently approves of my sometimes very irreverent (but argued) translations from BH.

There are no chairs here on Nazi studies or Communist studies. Those aspects are sufficiently covered by History. Religion has a very different historical setting. Many universities were founded primarily to educate future clergy. You dont change that in just a generation or two.

When useful, I can deliver sufficiently extreme ideas in any direction. But on possible academic bias, I wouldn't leave the Swedish system for my next few degrees for any country so far investeigated.

jjramsey

Even if it were about liberal Christians, patcleaver's statement about liberal Christians giving the fundamentalists cover is on dicey ground. James F. McGrath is clearly a liberal Christian, yet here he is, blasting the apologetics on the Lukan census: The Census of Quirinius and the Birth of Jesus of Nazareth

Doug Shaver

The absence of those topics from university curricula has nothing to do with their irrationality.

patcleaver

The irrationality of fascists and communists caused them to commit horrible atrocities which is why they are unpopular.

The irrationally of Christianity caused them to commit horrible atrocities, but that is OK because Christianity has reformed and will not do that again until the next time.

Ben C Smith

What a great quote from that page:

The cost of being dishonest about the evidence is far greater than the cost of acknowledging that the Bible does not always give accurate historical data.

Ben.

bacht

That's kind of a cheap shot isn't it? For one thing Christianity has been around for a millenium and a half, while Nazis and Marxists didn't even survive a century in power.

Are you sure that it's the institution that enables evil? We humans seem to find almost any excuse to abuse each other, I'm not convinced the label is to blame in most cases.

patcleaver

It does not seem like a cheap shot to me. It is not "the institution" or "the label" that is evil - it is Christian beliefs that are evil, because they inevitably lead to evil acts.

The fascists and communists were evil because they had evil beliefs. Their beliefs were evil because their beliefs inevitably lead to evil acts. Their core evil beliefs were 1) that they could know things without reasonable evidence, and 2) that doubt or dissent was evil. The fascists and communists also believed, without reasonable evidence, that the good of state was superior to the rights of individuals. In Germany it was believed without reasonable evidence, that the Jews had conspired with the communists to lose WW1 and to cause economic collapse. Few people complained when the communists and Jews were taken to the death camps. In Russia it was believed without evidence that there was a vast conspiracy against the Russian government, and few complained when all the dissenters were sent into exile in the gulags to die.

Most Christians share the same core evil beliefs with the fascists and communists, 1) that they can know things without reasonable evidence, and 2) that doubt or dissent is evil. Christians believed without evidence, that when unbelievers die, they burn alive forever in hell, so vandalism and censorship and book-burning and horrible torture and murder were justified, for the victims own good, to prevent people from being unbelievers, so tens of millions of innocent unbelievers were murdered by Christians. In one crusade 1/3 of the people of France were murdered by Christians. Christians terrorized humanity for 1500 years before the rise of secularism. Christians believed without evidence, that there were witches conspiring with the devil, and that they should be burnt to death or otherwise horribly murdered, so hundreds of thousands of innocent women were horribly murdered by Christians. Christians believed without evidence, that the Jews were hereditarily guilty of killing Christ, so nobody objected to 1500 years of pogroms in which Jews were systematically harassed and murdered by Christians.

Toto

What?!? Most Americans are Christians, and are not evil.

There are so many errors here that I hardly know where to start. The idea that doubt or dissent is evil is much more widespread than fascism or communism, and hardly characterizes either of those system. Similarly with "knowing things without reasonable evidence."

This is only true of certain Christians; and note that most of their victims were their fellow Christians.

This is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?

Could you at least admit that there are some Christians who do not burn witches or Jews?

Ben C Smith

Including some who would rather die themselves than do so (emphasis added):

During the Second World War [Maximilian Kolbe] provided shelter to refugees from Greater Poland, including 2,000 Jews whom he hid from Nazi persecution in his friary in Niepokalanów. He was also active as a radio amateur, with Polish call letters SP3RN, vilifying Nazi activities through his reports.

On 17 February 1941 he was arrested by the German Gestapo and imprisoned in the Pawiak prison, and on May 25th he was transferred to Auschwitz as prisoner #16670.

In July 1941 a man from Kolbe's barracks vanished, prompting SS-Hauptsturmführer Karl Fritzsch, the deputy camp commander, to pick 10 men from the same barracks to be starved to death in Block 13 (notorious for torture), in order to deter further escape attempts. (The man who had disappeared was later found drowned in the camp latrine.) One of the selected men, Franciszek Gajowniczek, cried out, lamenting his family, and Kolbe volunteered to take his place.

Ben.

Analyst

And there were many others who did much - always at great risk to themselves.

Righteous_Among_the_Nations

Many were Germans, many Catholics, in fact German resistance to Hitler was stronger than that of many other countries such as France or Poland.