Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 07-04-2009, 09:01 AM

It would appear to me that Jesus of the NT, as described, if he existed, must have been a master magician and sorcerer of a magnitude, along with his disciples, that surpassed the great magician called Simon Magus the great power of God, the holy one of God.

This is the author of Acts on Simon Magus.

Acts 8.9-11

Quote:

But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God,

11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

And this is Justin Martyr on Simon Magus in "First Apology" 26

Quote:

And, thirdly, because after Christ's ascension into heaven the devils put forward certain men who said that they themselves were gods; and they were not only not persecuted by you, but even deemed worthy of honours.

There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him.

He was considered a god, and as a god was honoured by you with a statue, which statue was erected on the river Tiber, between the two bridges, and bore this inscription, in the language of Rome:--

"Simoni Deo Sancto,"

"To Simon the holy God." And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations, worship him, and acknowledge him as the first god.....

See www.earlychristianwritings.com

Now in order for the disciples to convice the people of Samaria that Jesus was the true great power of God, they must SURPASS or out-perform the magical acts of Simon Magus known as the first god.

This is the author of Acts on Philip a supposed disciple of Jesus. He went to Samaria where almost all the people worship Simon Magus the great and holy one of God.

Acts 8.5-13

Quote:

5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized,he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Simon Magus the master magician, the great power of god, was out-performed by Philip a disciple of Jesus. Simon was amazed.

And now after Philip had amazed Simon with his Jesus miracle powers, the other disciples would come to Samaria to show Simon and the people of Samaria an unheard of power, the greatest magic, the Holy Ghost of God,[/b]

Two powerful performers, filled with the Holy Ghost of God, Peter and John, would go to Samaria to demonstrate this new incredible power, the Holy Ghost of God.

. Acts 8.14-24

Quote:

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(for as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

.

Simon had never "seen" such magical powers called the Holy Ghost of God. He was flabbergasted.

Simon wanted to buy the Power of the Holy Ghost.

The disciples of Jesus had shown that Simon was not the greatest magician.

It is written in the NT where Jesus and his disciples, Peter, James and John practised or performed some of the super-magical powers, high up in the mountains.

Mr 9:2 -

Quote:

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

If Jesus did exist, he and his disciple were super-magicians greater than Simon Magus who was considered the first god.

ApostateAbe · 07-04-2009, 10:41 AM

If the only choices on the historicity of Jesus are all or nothing, then of course it would be more reasonable to accept the nothing option, that the gospel accounts are complete lies. But that is a dichotomy we don't actually need. If the Roman Emporer Vespasian existed as described by Tacitus or Suetonius, then Vespasian was a magician who could heal the blind and renew a crippled hand. Should we believe that Vespasian never existed?

aa5874 · 07-04-2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

If the only choices on the historicity of Jesus are all or nothing, then of course it would be more reasonable to accept the nothing option, that the gospel accounts are complete lies. But that is a dichotomy we don't actually need. If the Roman Emporer Vespasian existed as described by Tacitus or Suetonius, then Vespasian was a magician who could heal the blind and renew a crippled hand. Should we believe that Vespasian never existed?

How did Tacitus describe Vespasian from birth to death?

How did Suetonius describe Vespasian from birth to death?

How did the authors of the NT and church writings describe Jesus from birth to ascension?

This is Suetonius on Vespasian. See http://penelope.uchicago.edu

Quote:

2 Vespasian was born in the Sabine country, in a small village beyond Reate, called Falacrina, on the evening of the fifteenth day before the Kalends of December, in the consulate of Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus and Gaius Poppaeus Sabinus, five years before the death of Augustus.

He was brought up under the care of his paternal grandmother Tertulla on her estates at Cosa. Therefore even after he became emperor he used constantly to visit the home of his infancy, where the manor house was kept in its original condition, since he did not wish to miss anything which he was wont to see there; and he was so devoted to his grandmother's memory that on religious and festival days he always drank from a little silver cup that had belonged to her.

Now this is the author of gMatthew on the birth of Jesus, Matthew 1:18 -

Quote:

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus is the offspring of magic. Vespasian was not.

ApostateAbe · 07-04-2009, 01:24 PM

You are saying that it is a bad analogy because the Vespasian character was human in birth and death. I don't find that difference particularly relevant. If Jesus has a greater proportion of miracles associated with his character than Vespasian, then that is telling of the differences in the biases of the writers and the mythical evolution, not of the nature of the differences of the original characters.

arnoldo · 07-05-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

. . Jesus is the offspring of magic. Vespasian was not.

So are you arguing for a mythical Jesus?

aa5874 · 07-05-2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

. . Jesus is the offspring of magic. Vespasian was not.

So are you arguing for a mythical Jesus?

For the purpose of this thread, as stated in the OP, I am arguing that if the NT Jesus and his disciples existed that they were super-magicians or sorcerers of a very high order.

Based on Acts, the disciple of Jesus out-performed the master magician, the first and holy one of god, Simon Magus.

arnoldo · 07-05-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

So are you arguing for a mythical Jesus?

For the purpose of this thread, as stated in the OP, I am arguing that if the NT Jesus and his disciples existed that they were super-magicians or sorcerers of a very high order.

Based on Acts, the disciple of Jesus out-performed the master magician, the first and holy one of god, Simon Magus.

Where in Acts does it state that Simon Magnus was first or holy?

Draconis · 07-05-2009, 09:34 AM

I am not sure what the difference is between doing magic (in this context) and doing miracles. In as far as what we hold to be the normal behaviour of physics/the universe, they are pretty much the same, ie doing something that temporarily suspends said normal behavior. Is it just that one allegedly involves a God and the other doesn't? It begs the question - from whence comes the power of magic if it does similar things to God-based miracles, but doesn't involve God.

Solo · 07-06-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draconis

I am not sure what the difference is between doing magic (in this context) and doing miracles. In as far as what we hold to be the normal behaviour of physics/the universe, they are pretty much the same, ie doing something that temporarily suspends said normal behavior. Is it just that one allegedly involves a God and the other doesn't? It begs the question - from whence comes the power of magic if it does similar things to God-based miracles, but doesn't involve God.

...the latter option which, in the simple-minded dichotomy of the origin of magical powers popular at the time and place, involved Beelzebub. In other words, if the early followers (and likely Jesus himself) practiced baptismal magic which made some adepts go temporarily berserk (and then return to normal) then it would be seen as either as (1) Jesus having miraculous powers from God, or (2) deception through witchcraft or magic obtained through Beelzebub. I do not assume that the effect of the proceedings would be in any different based on what the outsiders believed.

Jiri

Nero's Boot · 07-06-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

. . Jesus is the offspring of magic. Vespasian was not.

So are you arguing for a mythical Jesus?

There is no "argument."

--2,000 years of zero evidence spells it out in neon letters NB

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07-04-2009, 10:41 AM	#2
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	If the only choices on the historicity of Jesus are all or nothing, then of course it would be more reasonable to accept the nothing option, that the gospel accounts are complete lies. But that is a dichotomy we don't actually need. If the Roman Emporer Vespasian existed as described by Tacitus or Suetonius, then Vespasian was a magician who could heal the blind and renew a crippled hand. Should we believe that Vespasian never existed?

07-04-2009, 01:24 PM	#4
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	You are saying that it is a bad analogy because the Vespasian character was human in birth and death. I don't find that difference particularly relevant. If Jesus has a greater proportion of miracles associated with his character than Vespasian, then that is telling of the differences in the biases of the writers and the mythical evolution, not of the nature of the differences of the original characters.

07-05-2009, 09:34 AM	#8
Draconis Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 3,165	I am not sure what the difference is between doing magic (in this context) and doing miracles. In as far as what we hold to be the normal behaviour of physics/the universe, they are pretty much the same, ie doing something that temporarily suspends said normal behavior. Is it just that one allegedly involves a God and the other doesn't? It begs the question - from whence comes the power of magic if it does similar things to God-based miracles, but doesn't involve God.

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