Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 04:04 AM

You do realize you are and annoying person, right? As such you should accept what ever you get at the forum. It demonstrates that the universe has some sort of order and structure, so that should at least be comforting.

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 04:11 AM

Against Marcion 4:7

Quote:

Marcion premises that in the fifteenth year of the principate of Tiberius he came down into Capernaum, a city of Galilee—from the Creator's heaven, of course, into which he had first come down out of his own. (Evans translation)

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius (for such is Marcion's proposition) he "came down to the Galilean city of Capernaum," of course meaning from the heaven of the Creator, to which he had previously descended from his own. (Holmes)

Anno quintodecimo principatus Tiberiani proponit eum (Gel. Pam deum) descendisse in civitatem Galilaeae Capharnaum, utique de caelo creatoris, in quod de suo ante descenderat.

It is critical to notice that the original Latin does not say that Marcion's gospel says this. The English translations add the term 'Marcion' or 'he' believed this. But the original Latin is much more ambiguous.

It is when we read this statement in combination with what Epiphanius states in his Panarion that people feel convinced that this must have been in the Marcionite gospel:

Quote:

At the very beginning he excised everything Luke had originally composed—his 'inasmuch as many have taken in hand,' and so forth, and the material about Elizabeth and the angel's announcement to Mary the Virgin; about John and Zacharias and the birth at Bethlehem; the genealogy and the story of the baptism. All this he cut out and turned his back on, and made this the beginning of the Gospel, 'In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar,' and so on. He starts from there then and yet, again, does not go on in order. He falsifies some things, as I said, he adds others helter-skelter, not going straight on but disingenuously wandering all over the material. Thus 'Go show thyself unto the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded—that this may be a testimony unto you,' instead of the Saviour's 'for a testimony unto them.' [Panarion 42.11.6]

maryhelena · 03-20-2013, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

You do realize you are and annoying person, right? As such you should accept what ever you get at the forum. It demonstrates that the universe has some sort of order and structure, so that should at least be comforting.

My, my, Stephan - what on earth do you think you are doing?? Below is the version of your above post that I got via email:

------------------------------------------------------
stephan huller has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Dating Paul - in the Biblical Criticism & History forum of FRDB.

This thread is located at:
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....9&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
You do realize you are and annoying c...., right? It's not like you're a nice person. As such you should accept what ever beating you take from people at the forum.
***************

my bolding.

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 04:21 AM

That's so odd. I wonder what happened there. Must be some sort of a glitch in the system. It's funny I was trying to write the word 'character' but I settled on 'person' instead.

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 04:30 AM

Anyway back to the original discussion.

Quote:

Against Marcion 4:7

Marcion premises that in the fifteenth year of the principate of Tiberius he came down into Capernaum, a city of Galilee—from the Creator's heaven, of course, into which he had first come down out of his own. (Evans translation)

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius (for such is Marcion's proposition) he "came down to the Galilean city of Capernaum," of course meaning from the heaven of the Creator, to which he had previously descended from his own. (Holmes)

Anno quintodecimo principatus Tiberiani proponit eum (Gel. Pam deum) descendisse in civitatem Galilaeae Capharnaum, utique de caelo creatoris, in quod de suo ante descenderat.

It is critical to notice that the original Latin does not say that Marcion's gospel says this. The English translations add the term 'Marcion' or 'he' believed this. But the original Latin is much more ambiguous.

It is when we read this statement in combination with what Epiphanius states in his Panarion that people feel convinced that this must have been in the Marcionite gospel:

Quote:

At the very beginning he excised everything Luke had originally composed—his 'inasmuch as many have taken in hand,' and so forth, and the material about Elizabeth and the angel's announcement to Mary the Virgin; about John and Zacharias and the birth at Bethlehem; the genealogy and the story of the baptism. All this he cut out and turned his back on, and made this the beginning of the Gospel, 'In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar,' and so on. He starts from there then and yet, again, does not go on in order. He falsifies some things, as I said, he adds others helter-skelter, not going straight on but disingenuously wandering all over the material. Thus 'Go show thyself unto the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded—that this may be a testimony unto you,' instead of the Saviour's 'for a testimony unto them.' [Panarion 42.11.6]

The question is:

1. are Tertullian and Epiphanius citing the Marcionite gospel independently of one another?

or

2. are they citing a common source albeit in perhaps a slightly different form?

I think number 2 and it can be demonstrated as such, albeit with both Tertullian and Epiphanius reshaping common material in slightly different directions. Tertullian's text seems to have been based on a version which sought to prove that the events in the gospel were prefigured by the prophetic writings. I am not sure that this is original to the material. This may have been Irenaeus's reworking of the text. Epiphanius on the other hand either gleaned what he assumed were textual variations from that lost original treatise and assembled them in more or less the order of the Gospel of Luke. But notice this curious statement:

Quote:

He (Marcion) starts from there then and yet, again, does not go on in order. He falsifies some things, as I said, he adds others helter-skelter, not going straight on but disingenuously wandering all over the material.

Nothing in what either Tertullian or Epiphanius present us would lead us to the conclusion that the Marcionite gospel had a different order. This is very important for it shows IMO that the original text of Against Marcion (from which both accounts are drawn) based its argument on the order of the Catholic gospel. In other words, the author did not argue line by line with a copy of the Marcionite gospel in front of him but instead made the case that Marcion erased and added certain things to the Catholic text - whatever that was.

Vorkosigan · 03-20-2013, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Anyway back to the original discussion.

Quote:

Against Marcion 4:7

Marcion premises that in the fifteenth year of the principate of Tiberius he came down into Capernaum, a city of Galilee—from the Creator's heaven, of course, into which he had first come down out of his own. (Evans translation)

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius (for such is Marcion's proposition) he "came down to the Galilean city of Capernaum," of course meaning from the heaven of the Creator, to which he had previously descended from his own. (Holmes)

Anno quintodecimo principatus Tiberiani proponit eum (Gel. Pam deum) descendisse in civitatem Galilaeae Capharnaum, utique de caelo creatoris, in quod de suo ante descenderat.

It is critical to notice that the original Latin does not say that Marcion's gospel says this. The English translations add the term 'Marcion' or 'he' believed this. But the original Latin is much more ambiguous.

It is when we read this statement in combination with what Epiphanius states in his Panarion that people feel convinced that this must have been in the Marcionite gospel:

Quote:

At the very beginning he excised everything Luke had originally composed—his 'inasmuch as many have taken in hand,' and so forth, and the material about Elizabeth and the angel's announcement to Mary the Virgin; about John and Zacharias and the birth at Bethlehem; the genealogy and the story of the baptism. All this he cut out and turned his back on, and made this the beginning of the Gospel, 'In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar,' and so on. He starts from there then and yet, again, does not go on in order. He falsifies some things, as I said, he adds others helter-skelter, not going straight on but disingenuously wandering all over the material. Thus 'Go show thyself unto the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded—that this may be a testimony unto you,' instead of the Saviour's 'for a testimony unto them.' [Panarion 42.11.6]

The questions are:

1. are Tertullian and Epiphanius citing the Marcionite gospel independently of one another?

or

2. are they citing a common source albeit in perhaps a slightly different form?

I think number 2 and it can be demonstrated as such, albeit with both Tertullian and Epiphanius reshaping the some sort of common material in slightly different directions.

It looks like 2.

Vorkosigan

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 04:42 AM

I agree. And I think this is where all studies of Marcion fall off the tracks. We aren't really getting a glimpse of the true text but rather a detailed study of 'what's wrong' with the text. From the perspective of a hostile someone whom we don't even know and then whose testimony has been further warped by two agenda driven reporters. It's like learning about a man exclusively through crazy relatives of his ex-wife.

aa5874 · 03-20-2013, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I agree. And I think this is where all studies of Marcion fall off the tracks. We aren't really getting a glimpse of the true text but rather a detailed study of 'what's wrong' with the text. From the perspective of a hostile someone whom we don't even know and then whose testimony has been further warped by two agenda driven reporters. It's like learning about a man exclusively through crazy relatives of his ex-wife.

What an admission!!! You knew in advance of posting that studies of Marcion is like learning about a man exclusively through crazy relatives of his-ex-wife.

You already knew in advance that you would have Fallen off the track laid exclusively by the " crazy relatives". .

Effectively, you knew in advance that your studies of Marcion was "suicidal" or that your injuries would be directly proportional to the speed by which you would fall off the track.

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 06:58 AM

no you still can learn a lot from wives and ex-wives. And even their relatives. You just have to know what you're dealing with. One advantage being married. You should try it some it some time when your not busy recycling the same post for the millionth time

aa5874 · 03-20-2013, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

no you still can learn a lot from wives and ex-wives. And even their relatives. You just have to know what you're dealing with. One advantage being married. You should try it some it some time when your not busy recycling the same post for the millionth time

You have already fallen off the track. What you are saying now is the result of the damage that was done.

You were going over a "100 miles an hour" and you did NOT realize it. You hit the bottom real hard. :banghead:

You should NEVER ride on tracks built by crazy relatives of a man's ex-wife.

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03-20-2013, 04:04 AM	#601
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	You do realize you are and annoying person, right? As such you should accept what ever you get at the forum. It demonstrates that the universe has some sort of order and structure, so that should at least be comforting.

03-20-2013, 04:21 AM	#604
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	That's so odd. I wonder what happened there. Must be some sort of a glitch in the system. It's funny I was trying to write the word 'character' but I settled on 'person' instead.

03-20-2013, 04:42 AM	#607
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I agree. And I think this is where all studies of Marcion fall off the tracks. We aren't really getting a glimpse of the true text but rather a detailed study of 'what's wrong' with the text. From the perspective of a hostile someone whom we don't even know and then whose testimony has been further warped by two agenda driven reporters. It's like learning about a man exclusively through crazy relatives of his ex-wife.

03-20-2013, 06:58 AM	#609
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	no you still can learn a lot from wives and ex-wives. And even their relatives. You just have to know what you're dealing with. One advantage being married. You should try it some it some time when your not busy recycling the same post for the millionth time

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