Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 06-27-2005, 05:04 AM

Summarizing the points found in Paul relating to "when Christ died":

1. Christ was born/made from a woman, at some time after Moses established the Law
2. Christ came in the likeness of a man
3. Christ died before the time that Paul wrote his epistles
4. Christ was crucified, buried and then resurrected 3 days later (still before Paul wrote his epistles)
5. Christ was crucified by 'the rulers of this age'
6. Christ appeared to various people within the generation of Paul at some point after he died

So, can we determine when Paul thought Christ died and was resurrected? Was it closer to Moses' time or to his own?

Gal 1:4 who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father
I'm assuming that "give himself for our sins" refers to the Crucifixion. "Present evil age" sounds more likely to refer to the time that Paul is living in. Is there any evidence that the "present evil age" applies to some previous time?

1Cr 15:20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became
"Those sleeping" appears to refer to those Christians who have already died. Christ died and became the "first-fruits" of other Christians who died. Paul gives no time period between these two events, so there could be a long time between the time Christ rose from the dead (3 days after crucifixion) and the other Christians who have died. But is there any evidence for this?

Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we are also boasting in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom now we did receive the reconciliation
"We have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son" and "Through whom now we received the reconciliation". This also appears to place the death of Christ as occuring close to the current time.

I think these appear to place Christ's death closer to Paul's time than to Moses' time. Is there any hints in Paul that places Christ's death and resurrection in an indefinite past?

(I didn't cover 1 Thes 2:14 since some argue that it is an interpolation)

andrewcriddle · 06-27-2005, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOGO

[4] Paul claims to have seen Jesus yet all that he saw was a light and heard a voice. No man!

This is presumably based on Luke's account in Acts of the appearance of Jesus to Paul.

This may be problematic. Luke appears to separate the appearance to Paul far more rigidly from the appearances to the original apostles, than Paul himself does.

Andrew Criddle

NOGO · 06-27-2005, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

My list is looking at the "when", rather than the "where". I'm working on hints in Paul to see when he thought Christ died.

I don't think we can say that Paul knows next to nothing, just that he doesn't give many details. This appears to be the style of the early Christian writers, even those making HJ statements, like Ignatius and 'Barnabas'.

As far as the "when" I do agree with you.
It was close to Paul's time.
In fact if I were to argue this point I would argue that early Christans all believed that the end of the world was at hand and that they were living in the last generation. There are dozens NT elements which support this.

I would argue that the last generation was inaugurated by Jesus' death (MJ or HJ).

Does anybody disagree with you on this?

NOGO · 06-27-2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I don't think we can say that Paul knows next to nothing, just that he doesn't give many details. This appears to be the style of the early Christian writers, even those making HJ statements, like Ignatius and 'Barnabas'.

This was the style until the Gospels and Acts.
And strangly enough we know that most (if not all) of what is in these documents is myth. That certainly explains the numerous discrepancies between Paul and the Gospels.

Therefore when the "style" of early Christian writers came to be out of fashion it was realized that no one knew much about Jesus' life.

Gee, how convenient! So they had to make it up.

Clivedurdle · 06-28-2005, 01:18 AM

I think I disagree!

Was there a when? What if it is all eternal, heavenly?

Is all the second coming stuff actually because they were quite aware no messiah had arrived?

Does the phrase second coming exist in the Bible?

GakuseiDon · 06-28-2005, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I think I disagree!

Which part do you disagree with?

Quote:

Was there a when? What if it is all eternal, heavenly?

IIRC Paul makes some statements about the significance of Christ's death as being eternal, but places Christ death firmly in the past, as a recent event, or at the least, occuring after Moses. Does Paul say anything that disagrees with that?

Clivedurdle · 06-28-2005, 03:59 AM

Quote:

I am having real difficulty with Jesus' method of death. Romans 6 v6 says "our old man is crucified with him....".

The notes of my Dake's Annotated Reference Bible comments:

"Being "dead to sin" "crucified with him" "dead with Christ" "dead to the law" and like expressions are common among Hebrews, Greeks, Latins and other people."

Is even the crucifixion just a common expression for someone dying?

Heb 6 v6 " they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh"

Gal 2 20 I am crucified with Christ.

1 Cor 17

lest the Cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Gal 5 11 offence of the cross

Gal 6 12 - 14

suffer persecution for the cross of Christ

God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world is crucified unto me and I unto the world.

Is the cross really a symbol and not historical?

I would love to see some clear evidence that Paul actually talks about a real crucifixion on earth. I cannot see it!

Do we also have to be suspicious about the where?

Jerusalem - the city of God, the place of the holy of holies, the idea of a new Jerusalem...

Is the emphasis on the cross clear evidence that Paul is writing a couple of generations after the ending of temple sacrifices in 70CE? Why would a Jew be using this foreign symbol in place of the classic sacrifices unless they were very Romanised and had forgotten or did not know that much about sacrifices?

TedM · 07-05-2005, 09:36 PM

Quote:

I would love to see some clear evidence that Paul actually talks about a real crucifixion on earth. I cannot see it!

Then you aren't looking at it literally enough!

Actually, the evidences of metaphorical crucifixion that people find in Paul's writings are NEVER of a metaphorical crucifixion of Jesus. This is a common error. The metaphorical references by Paul are ALWAYS talking about himself or fellow believers being crucified metaphorically, to their old sinful natures. Yes, Paul writes metaphorically, but I haven't found where he is talking metaphorically about Jesus' own crucifixion. This to me, is a strong clue that Paul is really talking about a real crucifixion.

One of the most obvious problems, as Carrier and others have pointed out, with the idea that Paul was writing about a being crucified somewhere other than earth is that Paul NEVER says anything to give the reader a clue that that is what he is doing. With crucifixion being well-known to his readers on earth, it seems odd to me that he would never say "hey, you know I'm talking about that 'other sphere', right?" to make himself clear.

One of the common complaints people have about Paul's Jesus is the lack of references that match the gospels. This is an argument from silence, but to me that is a valid argument when an EXPECTATION of non-silence is reasonable.

My response is that Paul does write about a Jesus who matches the gospels in many ways. However, Paul is concerned with other issues in his writings, AND there really isn't a whole lot of material in those writings. It is a bit odd, but let's see what he does say:

From my review here: http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopict-7699.html

Quote:

Paul’s authentic epistles plus Colossians consist of a total of 1589 verses. In my bible the average full page has about 22 verses. Therefore Paul’s epistles consist of only about 72 pages! From the above, there are 92 different verses that reference Jesus in ways that sound human. That’s more than one reference per page. 31 of these refer to Jesus’ death with no further detail. Another 27 include further detail associated with Jesus’ death. The remaining 34 or so do not pertain to his death.

If one were to create a biography based on the above references from Paul‘s epistles, one might come up with the following:

Jesus was born of a woman, and lived in the flesh. He was Jewish, descended from King David. He had a brother named James. He possibly was poor. He was meek and gentle. He was sinless, perfect. God dwelled within Jesus, and he referred to God as his Father, using the term “Abba�?. He did not live to please himself, but only God. He taught that things are not sinful or unclean but that it is man’s thoughts that makes them so, that divorce is forbidden, that preachers of the gospel should be paid, and that upon his coming the dead shall precede the living to gather with him in the air.

He initiated a ritual as a way to be remembered after he was gone. The ritual was called the Lord’s supper and involved drinking from a cup of wine which represented his blood, and eating bread which represented his body given for those that believed in him. That same night, he was betrayed. He willingly humbled himself. He suffered, shedding his blood through the hanging on a cross--sometimes also called a tree, with nails driven into him. He did this obediently, and as a righteous act. Though he was came to be a servant to the Jews, the Jews were responsible for his death. Yes, he was crucified. This apparently happened in Jerusalem during the Passover event. The men responsible were rulers living about the time of Paul. They didn’t understand they had crucified the "Lord of Glory", stumbling as a result. Jesus physically died on the cross. He was buried, but the early Christians, including Paul, believed that Jesus had been raised from the dead. James, Jesus‘ brother apparently also believed, becoming a pillar in the early Church.

ted

TedM · 07-05-2005, 09:39 PM

Here are the verses that support what I call 'Paul's Jesus' in the last post, from my review here: http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopic-769...derasc-15.html

Quote:

Romans, 16 chapters

* Was a direct descendent of King David, and his father Jesse. 1:3,15:12
* Was in the flesh 1:3,8:3, 9:4-5a
* Shed his blood 3:25, 5:9
* Was put to death 4:25
* Was a man 5:15, 5:17, 5:18, 5:19
* His death was an act of righteousness 5:18
* Was buried 6:4
* Was crucified 6:6
* Had a body 7:4
* Suffered 8:17
* Was a ‘stumbling block’ to Jews 9:33 Gal 5:11 says the stumbling block is the cross
* The stumbling took place in Zion (Jerusalem) 9:33
* He will come from Zion (Jerusalem) as a deliverer 11:26
* Somehow persuaded Paul that thoughts make things unclean 14:4 possible teaching of Jesus}
* Did not live to please himself, reproached by man 15:3
* Became a servant to the Jews 15:8
* He died. 16 additional verses

1 Corinthians, 16 chapters

* Was crucified 1:13, 22, 2:2
* Is associated with a cross 1:17,18
* Was crucified according to the flesh by rulers (almost for certain speaking about men) of Paul’s age (time) 2:8,
* His death was a "paschal lamb" sacrifice, implying that it happened during Passover Celebration. 5:7
* He expressly forbid divorce. (if “Lord“ applies to him) 7:10
* He commanded that "preachers" should be paid for their preaching. (if “Lord“ applies) 9:14
* He initiated the Lord's supper and referred to the bread and the cup, in the same way as presented in the gospels “This is my body which is broken for you.�?etc. 11:23
* Jesus was betrayed on the night of the Lord's Supper. 11:23
* He had a body with blood 11:24,27
* Jesus was buried. 15:4
* He was a man 15:20-21, 15:45, 47,47,49
* He died. 5 additional verses

2 Corinthians, 13 chapters
* He suffered 1:5
* He was sinless 5:21
* He became poor 8:9
* He was meek and gentle 10:1
* He was crucified. 13:4
* He died. 3 additional verses

Galations, 6 chapters
* He had a brother named James, who later became a pillar in the early church. (if “Lord“ applies to him) 1:19
* He was crucified 2:20, 3:1
* He died 2:21
* He fulfilled the OT curse of those hung on a tree 3:13
* He was born in human fashion of a woman 4:4
* He was a Jew 4:4
* He referred to God as his Father using the term "abba". 4:6
* Is associated with a cross 5:11, 6:12,14

Philippians, 4 chapters
* He was “in figure as a man“, in “human form�? 2:7,8
* He humbled himself 2:8
* He was obedient 2:8
* He died on a cross 2:8
* He suffered 3:10
* He died 3:10

1 Thess, 5 chapters
* Jewish authorities were responsible for Jesus' death. 2:15
* He taught about the end-time. (if “Lord“ applies to him) 4:15
* He died. 3 additional verses

Colossians, 4 chapters
* His blood associated with the cross 1:20
* His body of flesh died 1:21
* In his body dwells deity 2:9
* Nailing associated with the cross 2:14
* He died. 2 additional references

In addition, there are numerous references to Jesus as having been raised from the dead thoughout all of Paul‘s epistles..

TedM · 07-05-2005, 09:43 PM

From my post here: http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopict-11516.html

Quote:

The testimony is that of Paul, a Christian, so this may influence one's belief in its credibility. Another consideration is that while 7 of his epistles are widely considered authentic by scholars of all stripes, the fact is that we don't have any of the original documents. Some may be inclined to believe that the original words were modified over time, which of course would be a major credibility concern. I think that the writings we have from Paul seem believable. They have very little talk of miracles (other than the belief in Jesus' resurrection) and I know of no internal contradictions in them. And, subjectively the tone is sincere.

Paul's Epistles are usually considered to be our earliest source of written documentation of Christianity. His writings are dated to between 45-60 BC. Paul was converted somewhere around 30-34AD, shortly after the traditional date of Jesus’ crucifixion.

It is common among those who believe Jesus never lived to point out that the earliest writings from Paul don't provide much at all in the way of a historical context for Jesus. This is true. The purpose of this thread is to examine what if anything Paul does say that addresses WHEN and WHERE the Jesus he writes about lived.

1 Timothy 6:13 says

Quote:

In the presence of God who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession…

This clearly places Jesus in a time and place consistent with the gospels. And the writer identifies himself in 1:1 as “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope.�?

However, 1&2 Timothy are not considered authentic by many scholars for several reasons. To my knowledge none of the reasons are definitive, as there are alternative explanations that are reasonable. To those I’d like to add to the following observations in support of its authenticity from my own reading of it. If he is impersonating Paul he does a good job of it on several levels:

1. He is consistent in his theology
2. His personal story is consistent with the 'authentic' epistles--a prisoner, people he knows, his former life as a persecutor of the faith
3. He mentions a number of specifics with regard to Timothy: He refers to Timothy‘s ‘youth‘ (4:12) , to Timothy’s public conversion in front of “many witnesses�?(6:12), and to Timothy’s mother and grandmother by name (2 Tim 1:5)
4. He mentions a number of specific people his readers presumably know (1:15-17, 4:9-20), and the way they are mentioned supports the idea that this was not written at a later date IMO. An example is the way he mentions Alexander and Hymanaeus in each book to Timothy.

Again, if he is a forgerer, he does a very good job. The problem I have with the forgery argument is that I can't find the motivation for it. It doesn't seem to reveal any major new theology or shocking concerns.
The various revealed motivations (to encourage, to give advice, to warn, to say goodbye, to express love) along with all of the detail with regard to various people and events seem authentic.

And I can think of no reason why someone would have written this in Paul’s name while Paul was living or right after his death.

{for a more in depth analysis in favor of the authenticity of 1 Timothy, see http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1337 }

If Paul did write this, then we do have a writing by Paul that puts Jesus in a clear historical setting which is consistent with the gospel writings, and the question is answered.

If one focuses only on the epistles which are widely considered authentic, then it is true that Paul never directly says where Jesus lived or when he lived, and provides no testimony from others that he knew saw him or knew him personally.

However, there are a number of indirect evidences in Paul’s writings that IMO do place Jesus in time and location consistent with the gospels. They are as follows:

1. Paul says he met with “James, the Lord’s brother.�? Gal 1:19. I’ve argued at length here http://www.infidelguy.com/modules.ph...=asc&start=345 that this is is most likely referring to a biological relationship of James to Jesus. As such, this places Jesus as living during Paul's lifetime. Additionally, since Paul met James in Jerusalem and James was a leader of the Christian Church, it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus was Jewish and lived among the Jews.

2. Paul says he met John and Peter along with James, and called them “reputed pillars of the Church�?. The Gospel of John, 1 John, 1 Peter and 2 Peter all are traditionally given authorship by John and Peter (1&2 Peter explicity claim to be authored by Peter in the first verse) and these four books are the only one in the NT that clearly say they witnessed Jesus in the flesh. If any of those authorships are correct, though Paul doesn't ever say it this would be indirect evidence that Paul met people that say they knew Jesus personally.

3. In 1 Cor 9:5 Paul refers to the “brothers of Jesus�? as having wives. As I argue in the discussion of James I think this passage also is referring to biological brothers of Jesus.

4. In 1 Cor 2:8 Paul writes Quote:
None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Those who say Jesus is a myth say that the ‘rulers of this age’ are not referring to men but demons or Satan. I think it is very clear from the last 13 verses of Chapter 1 and 2:1-8 that Paul is contrasting the wisdom of those who have been saved with those who haven’t. In order words, he is talking about PEOPLE. The rulers he is referring to are people of 'this age'. When is ‘this age’? Since Paul is contrasting current believers with current non-believers, it is most reasonable to conclude that he is talking about the current time period--in other words a Jesus who was crucified during the lifetimes of Paul’s readers.

5. There is a clear emphasis on Jesus returning in a number of Paul’s writings--to the point that some people were quitting their jobs, others deciding to not marry, etc... As time went on there is a lessoning of enthusiasm. I think it is more likely that the enthusiasm and resulting disappointment existed because Jesus was a known person who had recently lived than an unknown mythical person that none had ever known.

6. As I understand it, while crucifixions existed under Persian rule and some under Alexander, the overwhelming pctg of Jews that were crucified were in the 1st and 2nd centuries. This argues in favor of Jesus as having lived during the 1st century.

7. A famous passage is 1 Cor 15:3-8 “Quote:
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas(Peter), then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

There is no timeline between the raising and the appearances, but the implication is that these appearances occurred soon after the raising. This implication is strengthened by Paul‘s emphasis on receiving what sounds like a later appearance. Those Paul mentions as receiving appearances were Paul’s contemporaries. This implies that Jesus had lived very recently.

This passage is disputed and considered by some to be an interpolation. I don’t know all of the arguments for that, but IMO it fits the context of the chapter just fine.

8. Paul says in 1 Thess 2:15 that the Jews killed Jesus. He says in the prior verse that Christians in Judea were persecuted by the Jews. Galations 4:4 says Jesus was Jewish. In Romans 9:33 and 11:26 Paul quotes the OT scripture as saying the Messiah would come from Zion (Jerusalem) and that the 'rock' would be a stumbling block to the Jews. In Gal Paul says the stumling block is the cross upon which Jesus was crucified. In 1 Cor 5:7 he says "Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed." The Passover celebration was held in Jerusalem. Putting all of these together, it seems clear that Paul does say that Jesus lived as a Jew in Jewish land, and was crucified in Jerusalem.

In conclusion, while it is true that we don’t have a gospel of Jesus from Paul, we do have a number of indirect references that IMO are consistent with the timing and location of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels. Obviously some of these would also argue against the mythicism position that Paul's Jesus was a being that lived in another kind of sphere--and never actually walked this earth.

comments?

ted

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06-27-2005, 05:04 AM	#31
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Summarizing the points found in Paul relating to "when Christ died": 1. Christ was born/made from a woman, at some time after Moses established the Law 2. Christ came in the likeness of a man 3. Christ died before the time that Paul wrote his epistles 4. Christ was crucified, buried and then resurrected 3 days later (still before Paul wrote his epistles) 5. Christ was crucified by 'the rulers of this age' 6. Christ appeared to various people within the generation of Paul at some point after he died So, can we determine when Paul thought Christ died and was resurrected? Was it closer to Moses' time or to his own? Gal 1:4 who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father I'm assuming that "give himself for our sins" refers to the Crucifixion. "Present evil age" sounds more likely to refer to the time that Paul is living in. Is there any evidence that the "present evil age" applies to some previous time? 1Cr 15:20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became "Those sleeping" appears to refer to those Christians who have already died. Christ died and became the "first-fruits" of other Christians who died. Paul gives no time period between these two events, so there could be a long time between the time Christ rose from the dead (3 days after crucifixion) and the other Christians who have died. But is there any evidence for this? Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life. Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we are also boasting in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom now we did receive the reconciliation "We have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son" and "Through whom now we received the reconciliation". This also appears to place the death of Christ as occuring close to the current time. I think these appear to place Christ's death closer to Paul's time than to Moses' time. Is there any hints in Paul that places Christ's death and resurrection in an indefinite past? (I didn't cover 1 Thes 2:14 since some argue that it is an interpolation)

06-28-2005, 01:18 AM	#35
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I think I disagree! Was there a when? What if it is all eternal, heavenly? Is all the second coming stuff actually because they were quite aware no messiah had arrived? Does the phrase second coming exist in the Bible?

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