converted

I sense that you were born and raised a Catholic prior to becoming an athiest. Many of my friend who were Catholics appeared to have the same guilt based attitude associates with Christianity. My attitude about life derived from Christianity is completely opposite of your description. God does not "rule me", but instead God is like a loving parent to me. I am a scientist, I have studied philosophy, I have studied other religions, and I exercise my free will daily by choosing good over evil because it is the right thing to do. Choosing to do evil, selfish things is sin. Exercising free will and doing good things is not sin. You obviously missed the most basic concept of Christianity. Are you saying that you don't have free will if you don't get to do evil things?

Kosh

You can't simply discount Biffs attitude as a result of Catholicism. In fact, this is the very hypocrisy that we often find in the different denominations of Xianity. That "Oh, well ourse is the True Christianity (tm), not yours" attitude.

The fact of the matter is that very little of the eschatology makes sense when you really think about it. But you do have to actually think. Simply because you've chosen a watered down "salad bar" version of Xianity does not solve all the many problems with a religion that was originated by a bunch of Ignorant Bronze Age Goat Herders (tm).

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

I would love to know exactly what you consider "doing good things" is, and if it is what I think it is, will show you that now matter what it is still selfish and has nothing to do with free will.

Asha'man

<back from a week's vacation scuba diving>

That's it? That's the best apologetic you can come up with, Magus? Please try a little harder, show some imagination! This debate won’t get anywhere if you don’t put a little effort and thought into it.

This shows exactly the point I was trying to make earlier, btw. Apologetics destroy the bible more thoroughly than the original contradiction. Magus is now trying to make me believe that his God is an utter and complete moron. He wants me to blindly accept that the creator of the universe is also utterly unable to explain soap.

However, I'm not a moron like your God appears to be. When I hear such explanations, I reject them as absurd and stupid. Why even offer such an apologetic? All you have done is convinced me that you aren't thinking about this, just mindlessly quoting what has been fed to you.

If you had a good answer, you would offer it, right?

Since I've never gotten any apologetics that make a hint of sense, I can conclude that they are all rubbish, not worth the electrons used to publish them. Magus, you have very effectively supported the atheist argument, probably without even realizing it.

Asha'man

Sorry to bring up a dead topic again, but this is yet another crappy apologetic from the playbook. It simply fails to fly, and Magus throws it out there and runs every chance he gets. Why? Because this apologetic is weak, and does more damage than good.

Tell me Magus, if Luke's genealogy is from the mothers side, rather than the fathers, what is the name of Mary’s mother? What is the name of her matrilineal grandmother?

If you are going to anachronistically project the idea of Jewish descent back a few centuries, it doesn’t work if you can’t show that Mary was herself a Jew, born from a Jewish mother.

converted

I am just saying, that I have encountered many ex-Catholics that have stated that they experienced a "gult based" view of Christianity. I did not say my denomination is better or worse. I simply said that many persons have told me they are happier in my church than they were in the Catholic church.

For some reason, Athiests seem to think that Christians are completely ignorant. I personally have an IQ of 140. I am a Menza. I am an engineer and graduated from one of the best Engineering schools in the country. I understand the theory of relativity and evolution. I have a Master's degree in Management. During college I took multiple philosophy classes (basic philophy, logic, philosophy of religion, etc...). In the philosphy class on religions, I studied all of the major religions. I have also been a Christian for a long period of my life and have studied that as well.

To understand Christianity, you have to acknowledge the possibility that the spiritual world exists and if you deny that possibility, than there is clearly no way of proving anything to you. It seems like athiests would be willing to acknowledge that other dimensions may exist based on scientific theories like string theory. I ask you, if other dimensions exist, do you think there is a possibility that the spiritual world lives in one of those other dimensions that you personally cannot see?

knuckles644

Ok, the spiritual world may exist. Now, prove that there is a God, Jesus is God's son and came to Earth 2,000 years ago, and that he died on a cross for our sins. PM me if you wish.

Kosh

And for good reason! When I was a Xian with my 140 IQ (yes, on the church board, playing in the worship team), I was ignorant of many of the issues which were exposed when I stopped being a drone, and started thinking (and studying) for myself. As we have seen many times here on this board, a VERY LARGE majority of Xians ARE ignorant of their own religion.

Those who are not, like yourself, simply fall back on the "faith" argument. As you have just done. We call it "Cognitive Dissonance".

As for Mensa, I used be impressed by it, until I realized that I qualified for membership...

Biff the unclean

Christians spend so much time attacking intelligence and rejecting reason, logic and science that Atheists can be excused for their assumptions.

And by the bye, that's Mensa. I've been a member since '72 and if my IQ were only 140 I certainly would not mention it at a meeting. They'd have me working coat check.

Gregg

Of course, whether the church makes you "happier" has no bearing on whether it's true or not, as I'm sure you realize. I was a New Thought Christian for a while, myself. I enjoyed it, and it was actually very scary to leave it behind, but the more I studied and thought, the more I realized I had to.But if you can read, you should have read and comprehended the posts that stated that a not inconsiderable number of atheists on this board USED TO BE CHRISTIANS. And not just Catholic Christians either.I think you'll find that most atheists would be more than willing, for the sake of experimentation, to grant the possibility that the "spirit world" exists.Sure, it's possible. Maybe not very possible, but you can't discount it 100%. Still, it's a long way from there to proving Christianity (and disproving all the other religions).

BTW, your intellectual credentials don't really impress me (nor will they impress anyone on these boards, most likely). My IQ is not as high as yours, nor am I as academically accomplished as you are, but I know that extremely intelligent people have firmly believed all manner of ridiculous things. Intelligence itself does not prevent irrational thinking or self-delusion.

What distinguishes science from other human enterprises such as religion and philosophy is that it requires evidence. This levels the playing field. Yep, most scientists are purty durn smart, and I couldn't hold up my end of the conversation talking with, well, nearly all of them about their respective fields, but even a dumb hick Missourian like myself can see that 1) Science has evidence and 2) Science works. In fact, it has a very long track record of amazing successes and accomplishments within a very short time. I don't need to be Einstein to see this. As we say in Missouri, "Show Me," and science has.

Now, this doesn't mean I worship science, or regard it as a philosophy on which to base one's life (although science and the scientific method can certainly inform the development of a moral and ethical philosophy, and contribute to it). It isn't the purpose of science to tell us how to live (although again, it can help inform our decisions about how to live) or to give life meaning.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how postulating the existence of a spiritual world somehow gives life meaning. How can something outside yourself (or even within yourself, but somehow separate from your physical self), even if it is your "creator," truly give your life meaning? Is surrendering your life to an invisible power, whose purposes you do not know or understand, really that fulfilling? Does it really make your life meaninful? I think ultimately, we have to create meaning for ourselves, using such tools as reason and compassion.