Johnny Skeptic

Is the geneaology of Joseph or Mary of any value to Christians without correlating it with Micah 5:2?

hatsoff

Possibly. I'm not very clear what Micah is talking about, here. Is it the Christ? I can't tell.

noah

No. Micah 5 (if you read it) is talking about someone who will save them from the Assyrians in a time frame some 600 years before JC. There are other reasons why it's not JC, of course, but that is a pretty obvious one.

Helpmabob

I am in no doubt that Micah 5:2 is foretelling the coming of Jesus. It continues later:
He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
And he will be their peace. [Micah 5:4,5]

But the geneaology of Joseph or Mary is not of any particular value as such to christians.

Johnny Skeptic

Regarding "And they will live securely," who will live securely, and when, and what does "securely" mean? Regarding "for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth," what does that mean? The "greatness" of many religions has spread all over the world.

hatsoff

I think the bit about "his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth and he will be their peace" is what seals the deal for Helpmabob; not so much the "they will live securely" part.

Helpmabob

Hi Johnny – I should think this refers to God’s people (and there is one God). God will know them.It may be referring to the good news of Christ spreading throughout the world; or the protection of His people; or the coming again of Christ. Possibly, but that is not what is referred to here – it is solely and specifically christianity. Christ said he who is first will be last.

So, Johnny, what is your view on who is being discussed in Micah 5:2?

Johnny Skeptic

The text says ".......out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Jesus did not become ruler in Israel, there is no credible evidence that he is from everlasting, and there is no credible evidence that he was born in Bethlehem. We do not know who the text IS talking about, but we do know who the text IS NOT talking about, that is, unless Jesus returns to earth and becomes ruler in Israel and reasonably proves that he is from everlasting.

Some skeptics have speculated that Micah chapter 5:2 is referring to a deliverer from the Assyrians. Micah 5:5-6 say "And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders."

Helpmabob

Hi Johnny – Not as such, but he was crucified as ‘King of the Jews’.Again, this cannot be proved, but there is no evidence to the contrary. If we presume that he was from everlasting, he can also be ruler over his people ‘Israel’ - in their hearts.

I don’t really know about the deliverer from the Assyrians. Perhaps the reference to the Assyrians was because they were perennial Israeli enemies, so this was figuratively pointing generally to great enemies of Israel i.e. Satan.

Johnny Skeptic

Where was that prophesied?

It is not anymore incumbent upon skeptics to disprove the Bible than it is for Christians to disprove the Koran.

But that is not the context of Micah chapter 5. The chapter has a temporal ruler in mind. Regardless, what evidence do you have that Jesus was from Bethlehem?

And perhaps not. You need to consider Micah 5:2 in context. Micah 5:1-5 say "Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men." No wonder most Jews have always rejected Jesus. He most certainly did not fit the description of those verse.