Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-17-2011, 05:39 AM

Clement states that "Paul" quotes from a version of oracles of Hystaspes which alludes to Christ. One explanation provided is that Clement is quoting Paul from a non canonical source. If this is the case, has anyone got any idea whether such a non canonical source exists?

Another explanation is that there is no source to this Clementine fabrication, and the author of "Clement" simply has "Paul" declare a Christianized message from Hystaspes.

In reference to the Christianization of the oracles of Hystaspes, Arnaldo Momigliano points out that "These oracles predicted the destruction of the Roman Empire and the return to the power of the east.". He goes on to say ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM

"Justin in his Apology knew that the circulation of the
oracle of the Hystaspes had been prohibited on penalty
of death. (1.44.12). One version of the oracle had been
Christianized before Clement of Alexandria. Clement in fact
attributes a quotation of Hystaspes to St, Paul (Stom 6.5.43.1)
He must have found reference to it in some apocryphal text
attributed to Paul. In this Christianized version, Hystaspes
alludes to Christ.

p.140; On Pagans, Jews and Christians: Arnaldo Momigliano, 1987

The Stromata or Miscellanies Book VI

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dear Clement from The Stromata or Miscellanies Book VI

the Apostle Paul will show, saying:

"Take also the Hellenic books, read the Sibyl, how it is shown that God is one, and how the future is indicated. And taking Hystaspes, read, and you will find much more luminously and distinctly the Son of God described, and how many kings shall draw up their forces against Christ, hating Him and those that bear His name, and His faithful ones, and His patience, and His coming."

Toto · 10-17-2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Clement states that "Paul" quotes from a version of oracles of Hystaspes which alludes to Christ. One explanation provided is that Clement is quoting Paul from a non canonical source. If this is the case, has anyone got any idea whether such a non canonical source exists?

Another explanation is that there is no source to this Clementine fabrication, and the author of "Clement" simply has "Paul" declare a Christianized message from Hystaspes.

...

In the earlier books of the Stromata, Clement quotes Paul from the Acts of the Apostles on various Hellenistic themes. Paul quoting from the Hystaspes seems to be a continuation of this theme.

On Pagans, Jews, and Christians (or via: amazon.co.uk) may be previewed on Google Books.es

stephan huller · 10-17-2011, 06:15 PM

And Celsus made reference to 'Sibyllists' (i.e. Christians who used the pagan oracles) and the idea is also present in Catholic writers (Tertullian, ad Nationes, ii. 12). As with everything Pete brings forward it only has shock value for the ignorant. There are Christian today that practice yoga and eastern meditation practices. All that Pete's research is good for is to remind us that faith is never monochromatic or monolithic.

tanya · 10-19-2011, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

All that Pete's research is good for is to remind us that faith is never monochromatic or monolithic.

He has introduced, in this thread, an important question, based upon a theme, very similar to one developed by you, Stephan:

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Now there can be no doubt that the earliest surviving manuscript of the Protrepticus does witness the author as 'Clementos Stromateos.' Yet Cosaert's overview of the low quality of the manuscript is very enlightening:

Quote:

While there are a number of extant fragments of Clement's writings, only a handful of relatively late continuous texts manuscripts exist today. The oldest surviving manuscript is the tenth century Arethas Codex dated located in the Biblioteque Nationale at Paris (Parisinus gr. 451 = P). The manuscript claims to be copied for the Archbishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia between September 913 and August 914. The codex originally contained all of the Protrepticus as well as the three volumes of Clement's Paedagogus. The codex is badly mutilated however, and no longer preserves the first ten chapters of Paed 1 and the opening lines of chapter 11. In addition to its condition, Marcovich notes that the manuscript appears to derive from an "exemplar full of textual corruptions, lacunae, interpolations and dislocations." The primary witness for the missing part of the Paedagogus is the eleventh century manuscript Mutinensis, gr. 126 (= M). This manuscript contains all of the Protrepticus and Paedagogus. The nearly identical nature of M and P have led scholars to conclude that M was copied from P.

Cosaert also notes that the same situation is to be found with the other surviving manuscripts:

Quote:

The text of the Stromateis, Excerpta ex Theodoto and the Eclogae propheticae is also primarily dependent upon one late manuscript. In the case of these writings, the manuscript is the Laurentianus V 3 (= L) located in Florence. It has been thought that the manuscript might also have belonged to Arethas, Archbishop of Caesarea. As with the case with P, L is full of textual corruptions, errors in names, numbers, omissions, misplaced sentences, as well as insertion of marginalia into the text. The textual corruptions of L do not appear to be due to the frailty of the scribe who copied it. Commenting on Hort's extensive examination of the textual corruptions in the Stromateis, Frederic Kenyon concluded that the extensive nature and character of the textual corruptions pointed to a damaged ancestor - probably going all the way back to a poorly copied papyrus archetype.

In his conclusion Cosaert notes:

Quote:

The fact that the sole authority for each of Clement's extant writings is ultimately dependent on a single manuscript is far from ideal. For text-critical purposes, one would prefer to have several independent manuscripts for each of Clement's writings. This would make it possible to determine if his New Testament citations had been carefully preserved or altered through transcription. Unfortunately this is not possible. [p. 13 - 14]

"This would make it possible to determine if his New Testament citations had been carefully preserved or altered through transcription. Unfortunately this is not possible."

not possible....

So, then, what is Mountain-man's research good for? Well, it is not good for treating the extant "patristic" literature as if it were the "gospel truth".

Your pejorative post is unbecoming, stephan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

In the earlier books of the Stromata, Clement quotes Paul from the Acts of the Apostles on various Hellenistic themes. Paul quoting from the Hystaspes seems to be a continuation of this theme.

Thank you for teaching this...

My question is who came first, Paul, then Clement, or vice versa, or both concurrently? How confident can we be that Paul and Clement are different people, especially that Clement of Rome, to add a little salt to the meat, also cited Paul, supposedly. Can all three have been fabrications, from the point of view of the extant manuscript evidence?

If one examines writings attributed to Justin Martyr, as a patristic source, perhaps earliest, or maybe not, I don't know, can one write with confidence, that the extant manuscript evidence of his output is attested to, in multiple instances, (not just a couple of manuscripts one copied from another,) both copies dating from before the fourth century? I doubt it.

It is not "faith" whose monochromaticity benefits from acknowledgement, but rather, investigation, questioning, research, i.e. the contrary of "faith".

Thank you Mountain-man.

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10-17-2011, 06:15 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And Celsus made reference to 'Sibyllists' (i.e. Christians who used the pagan oracles) and the idea is also present in Catholic writers (Tertullian, ad Nationes, ii. 12). As with everything Pete brings forward it only has shock value for the ignorant. There are Christian today that practice yoga and eastern meditation practices. All that Pete's research is good for is to remind us that faith is never monochromatic or monolithic.

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