Clivedurdle

In 40 BC P Vergilius Maro - Virgil - wrote:

Now comes the crowning age foretold in the Sybil's songs
A great new cycle, bred of time, begins again
Now virginal justice and the golden age returns
now its first born is sent down from high heaven
with the birth of this boy, the generation of iron will pass
and a generation of gold will inherit all the world

quoted from Tom Holland Rubicon.

This book has taught me Roman history which I had not seen as a whole.

My reaction is that xianity is primarily a Roman religion translated into Judaism from the very beginning - not by Paul or Constantine.

Going back to my old marxism, it seems like an attempt to cope with the huge changes that occurred with the end of the Republic and Julius Caesar and his adopted son Augustus Caesar.

Everyone acknowledges these dreams of a golden age and the coming of a saviour god. They do not allow that maybe Jesus the Christ was just one of many and as a proper god king(queen) - like cleopatra - would definitely have been written about.

Amlodhi

Other translations yield:

The great cycle of periods is born anew.
*Now the Virgin returns; the reign of Saturn returns.*

* = "iam redit et Virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna"


I agree that Judaism could have scarcely avoided some syncretism, but IMO it was indeed Paul that converted the doctrine of the original Jewish followers of Jesus into Christianity as we know it today.


Indeed, and the meme was originally astronomical; specifically, the ending and beginning of world ages based on equinoctial precession.

Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend recount Aratus' astronomical poem and "how Themis-Virgo, who had lived among humans peacefully, retired at the end of the Golden Age" and that she "took up her heavenly abode near Bootes, when the Bronze Age began".

["Hamlet's Mill", Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend; David R. Godine, Pub., Boston]

In fact, from what you have written here, the above referenced book might be one you would be interested in reading. This is not "new-age" pap, both of the authors are respected professors in the field of historical research; the late Giorgio de Santillana of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Hertha von Dechend of Wolfgang Goethe University in Frankfurt.

It is a curious and interesting topic,

Amlodhi

Toto

Tom Holland Rubicon Hamlet's Mill: An Essay on Myth and the Frame of Time Yth by Giorgio De Santillana, Hertha Von Dechend Other reviewers fault the presentation.

Amlodhi

Dr. Hertha von Dechend, (then) Assistant Chair of the History of Science,
Wolfgang Goethe University, Frankfurt:

"To start from sheer opposition to ruling opinions is not likely to lead to sensible insight, at least so we think. But anyhow, I did not start from there, although there is no denying that my growing wrath about the current interpretations (based upon discouraging translations) was a helpful spur now and then. In fact, there was nothing that could be called a 'start', least of all the intention to explore the astronomical nature of myth. To the contrary, on my side, having come from ethnology to the history of science, there existed 'in the beginning' only the firm decision never to become involved in astronomical matters, under any condition."

"It was after having spent more than a year over at least 10,000 pages of Polynesian myths - that the annihilating recognition of our complete ignorance came down upon me like a sledge hammer: there was no single sentence that could be understood. But then, if anybody was entitled to be taken seriously, it had to be the Polynesians guiding their ships securely over the largest ocean of our globe. . ."

"Thus, the fault had to rest with us, not with Polynesian myth. Still I did not 'try astronomy for a change' - there was a strict determination on my part to avoid this field. I looked into the archaeological remains of the many islands, and there a clue was given to me (to call it being struck by lightning would be more correct) which I duly followed up, and then there was no salvation anymore: astronomy could not be escaped. "

"First it was still 'simple' geometry - the orbit of the sun, the Tropics, the seasons - and the adventures of gods and heroes did not make much more sense even then. Maybe one should count for a change?"

"What could it mean, when a hero was on his way slightly more than two years, 'returning' at intervals, 'falling into space', coming off the 'right' route? There remained, indeed, not many possible solutions: it had to be planets (in the particular case of Aukele-nui-a-iku, Mars). If so, planets had to be constitutive members of every mythical personnel; the Polynesians did not invent this trait by themselves."

[From the preface: "Hamlet's Mill" as previously referenced]

"The reservoir of myth and fable is great, but there are morphological 'markers' for what is not mere storytelling of the kind that comes naturally."

[From the introduction: ibid.]

My recommendation: Read the book, not just the reviews.

Amlodhi

Clivedurdle

Clivedurdle

Tom Holland received a double first from Cambridge. He has adapted Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides and Virgil for BBC Radio. His scholarly style is pefect to reposition him as a writer of non-fiction as well as fiction.

Amlodhi

Hello Clivedurdle,

I'm sorry, I don't understand the purpose of this. I have seen no reason to think that Tom Holland would be at odds with Santillana & von Dechend.

But I would like to ask, (based on Tom Holland's writings or not), in what way do you think that "Roman religion (was) translated into Judaism"?

Genuinely curious about this,

Amlodhi

Paul5204

Christianity a Roman religion. You might as well have said that 2 + 2 = 10.
What was the motto of Rome? Pax et securitas? That other Paul to the church of God at Thessalonika: For just when they are saying, Pax et securitas, then sudden destruction....

You might also want to read some more Roman history, more specifically, the Res Gestae Divi Augusti. And then note the Christian antithesis, the Acts of the Apostles. Then note that we left out the "divi" part, as unlike Augustus, we do not proclaim ourselves but Yeshua as kyrios. And I otherwise doubt that like Peter, Augustus told anyone to stand up since he too was just a man.

And then there's Seutonius:

"“He [Julius Caesar] was numbered among the gods."

Counterpoint [to the church of God at Rome]:

"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God [and not the euangelion of Caesar; see below] which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord..."

And then there's that certain calendar inscription at Priene, near Ephesus [otherwise dating to 9 BCE]:

"The birthday of the god [that is, the "divine" Augustus] was for the world the beginning of tidings of joy [euangelion] which have been proclaimed for his sake."

Good news, you say? So it seems that someone else besides the early Christians had their own euangelion. And going back to what I said above, given that it was proclaimed to be the era of pax et securitas, then we can rightly call Augustus' message the euangelion of peace. But there was an alternative. First, and again to the church of God at Rome: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ..." Second [and once again to the church of God at Rome]: "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" And lastly: "And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace..."

You might otherwise consider why the NT has some rather politically-loaded terms, as in basileia [kingdom], politeuma [commonwealth/polis], etc.

As a next to last, consideration, why would that other Paul care about men praying with their heads covered? Was it because when I go to the local museum I can view pictures of Roman emporers praying with their heads covered? And so for a Christian man to adopt the same mode of praying as that of the emporer [who by the way had his own imperial cult] would dishonor his head, who is Christ [and not the emporer].

You and the rest might otherwise wish to read the words of someone other than Mr. Maccoby. You might start with: Neil Elliot's "Liberating Paul[:]The Justice of God and the Politics of the Apostle," and Richard A. Horsley's "Paul and Empire[:] Religion and Power in Roman Imperial Society." Re the latter, from the publisher of the same:

"Over the centuries, Paul has been understood as the prototypical convert from Judaism to Christianity. At the time of Paul's conversion, however, Christianity did not yet exist. Moreover, Paul says nothing to indicate that he was abandoning Judaism or Israel. He, in fact, understood his mission as the fulfillment of the promises to Israel and of Israel's own destiny. In brief, Paul's gospel and mission were set over against the Roman Empire, not Judaism.

This anthology brings together incisive and ground breaking essays on: (1) "The Gospel of Imperial Salvation," revealing how the imperial cult, by its dominance in urban public space, created a pervasive presence of imperial beneficence and salvation integrated into traditional Greek religion; (2) "Patronage and Power," disclosing the networks of patronage relations that held the empire together so as to render occupying troops and imperial bureaucracy unnecessary in urbanized areas such as Corinth and Ephesus, key centers of Paul's mission; (3) "Paul's Articulation of an Alternative Gospel," discerning how Paul borrows much of the key language of the imperial religion in preaching his own gospel of a Lord who had been crucified by imperial rulers but vindicated by God as the true universal Lord; (4) "The Assemblies of an Alternative International Society," exploring ways in which the assemblies Paul founded in Asia Minor and Greece were to embody patterns alternative to the hierarchical human relations that dominated Roman Imperial society."

"Table of Contents

General Introduction
Part I: THE GOSPEL OF IMPERIAL SALVATION

Introduction
1. Laus Imperii by P. A. Brunt
2. Who Is the True Prophet? by Dieter Georgi
3. Rituals and Power by S. R. E Price
4. The Power of Images by Paul Zanker

Part II: PATRONAGE, PRIESTHOODS, AND POWER
Introduction
5. Patronal Power Relations by Peter Garnsey & Richard Saller
6. Patronage in Roman Corinth by John K. Chow
7. The Veil of Power by Richard Gordon

Part III: PAUL:S COUNTER-IMPERTAL GOSPEL
Introduction
8. God Turned Upside Down by Dieter Georgi
9. Imperial Ideology and Paul's Eschatology in 1 Thessalonians by Helmut Koester
10. The Anti-Imperial Message of the Cross by Neil Elliot
11. Romans 13:1-7 in the Context of Imperial Propaganda by Neil Elliot

Part IV: BUILDING AN ALTERNATIVE SOCIETY
Introduction

12. The Imperial Cults of Thessalonica and Political Conflict in 1 Thessalonians
by Karl P. Donfried
13. The Praxis of Coequal Discipleship by Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza
14. 1 Corinthians: A Case Study of Paul's Assembly as an Alternative Society by Richard A. Horsley"

And to truly end, with:

http://www.ctinquiry.org/publication...e_2/wright.htm

Warthur

Wacky conspiracy theory: could this have been Paul's mission all along?

He himself admitted that he was originally going to Damascus in order to investigate Christians there on behalf of the Romans. Perhaps the real point was to infiltrate this dangerous sect of Jewish liberationists, gain a prominent role within them, and introduce more palatable elements into protoChristian theology?

I don't believe this for a second, of course, but it's a fun theory.

Clivedurdle

First, apologies Amlodhi, my biographical details about Tom Holland were in response to the description of him as a novelist (from a publisher's review) I thought that could be misleading.

Paul5204. I'm sorry your points confirm my hypothesis! You have shown Christianity is clearly anti- Roman. If it is a strong reaction to something, that becomes the more likely reason for its existence! It also explains why it was adopted by the Roman Empire, and its main grouping is based in Rome! It may be in opposition, but its basic beliefs and thinking are Roman!


I find the following review by Michael Hoffman on Amazon enlightening. I agree there is a need for a synthesis of mythical and socio-economic crtiques to understand this fascinating phenomena of a world wide religion that says it is about peace but sends non adherents to hell!

Hoffman starts with the destruction of the Temple. I would go earlier, to Caesar and Cleopatra - Cleopatra was both the leader of the Greek world and the Pharoah goddess of the Egyptians. Add in Caeser, moving between Republicanism and being a lover of a goddess and you have more than enough ingredients to start a new religion!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...385176-1479867