Huguenot

What evidence do you have that the prophecy against the King and the Kingdom of the Phoenicians was later than the events we're discussing? (You have the burden of proof if you allege a forgery of some kind)

Let's review. Phoenician Tyre is no more. Their empire is no more; their trade is no more; their wealth is no more; their once-awesome "Queen of the Seas" navy is no more; their language is no more; their religion is no more; their culture is no more. In fact, to this very day, Tyre is a fishing port (sound familiar?).

Sheshonq

How typically naive. You seem to think that if a source has one correct claim, then all other claims must be true. You may treat your bible that way, but that is not how historical research is conducted.

Each claim in Josephus is tested one at a time. It stands, or falls, on its own merits.

You bet - and proud of it.

Skeptics aren't naive enough to believe that if a source has one correct claim, then all other claims must be true -- especially when the source (Josephus) has obvious errors in it. :rolling:

Sheshonq

You're the one with the claim of truth and fulfilled prophecy. He who asserts, has burden of proof. So the burden of proof is on your back, not anyone else's.

Wrong. The city exists and is a metropolis. Contrary to Ezekiel's prophecy, it did not fall at the hands of Babylon.

The fact that it declined from empire status centuries later is not a fulfillment of prophecy. It's the natural course of history - all empires eventually fall.

In point of fact, it is a modern bustling city of over 100,000 people.

New York City is also a fishing port. That doesn't stop it from also being a metropolis.

Darklighter

Sugarman, please address the Egypt part of the prophecy. You can nitpick the wording of Chapter 26 all you want, but the Egypt prophecy is arguably MORE of a failure than the Tyre one. At least Nebby did attack Tyre, but aside from Nebby claiming to have attacked Egypt, theres no record of it whatsoever. This period (as pointed out earlier by myself and others) was peaceful and prosperous for Egypt. This indicates that he NEVER DID attack Egypt though (let alone defeat/plunder/depose them), because if Egypt had sustained and repelled Nebbys forces they would have bragged extensively about this. Yet they were silent.

Apparently Nebby planned to attack but never followed through. What say you?

Darklighter

Well maybe you should tell yourself and other zealots to stop quoting parts of the Bible....and ignoring the rest.

Typical evasion tactics. :wave:

Jack the Bodiless

Utterly false.

Not only was the prophecy aimed at TYRE (which was on the island), but: even your attempt to rewrite history won't work, because the area occupied by Ushu is NOT a "bare rock"!

In fact, your statement is false for several reasons:

1. Tyre was on the island, and Ezekiel knew that. That's why he specified Tyre, not Ushu, as the target of the prophecy (only the Greeks ever referred to Ushu as "Old Tyre", and he wasn't writing in Greek: besides, everything that mattered was on the island).

2. Even if you try to split up the prophecy, you can't get around the fact that Nebby failed to do what Ezekiel specifically said that HE would do (breach the walls and rampage down all the streets of Tyre): hence your attempt to claim that "all" really means "some" and that Tyre isn't even a part of Tyre. :Cheeky:

3. Tyre was to be permanently destroyed, and this has never happened. Even Ushu was rebuilt. Your claim that Ushu was confined to the "bald spot" is entirely false (Ushu was spread out along the coast) and even the "bald spot" was built on (that's why it has ROMAN ruins on it) and is NOT "bald" (that's why it is protected: it hasn't been "scraped clean", the Roman ruins are still there!).

And we have also proved independently that Ezekiel was a false prophet anyhow. You know this: that's why you can't answer the failure of the "Egypt prophecy". So who do you think you're kidding? Not us.

Jack the Bodiless

Let's review reality: absolutely NONE of this was achieved by Nebuchadnezzar, by Alexander, or by anyone else. Every single fact that you cite was due to nothing more than the passage of 2500 years of history.

I see you've added photographic proof of the failure of the prophecy!

Tyre was never to be rebuilt. It was to be destroyed so thoroughly that it would "never be found again".

That's why there are no buildings or ruins in those picures, right? Except that those sure look like buildings and ruins to me. Perhaps your faith has blinded you so much that you failed to spot them?

spin

I've ignored nothing. I've put your mistakes about him in the context you failed to and shown you have no friend in Josephus, who contradicts your sad claims, down to your fictitious stuff about mainland Tyre. And you've got nothing to say about that. You pretend that you haven't seen it and if you haven't seen it you can pretend it's not there.


spin

spin

There was no "kingdom of the Phoenicians". There were city states.

The prophecy says nothing at all about Phoenician Tyre. It talks about Tyre.

You are manipulating the data.


spin

sugarhitman

What i'm not even warm yet. :wave: