Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 07-08-2010, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Fits better as an anti Marcion insertion, Mary.

Oh!
That is a very interesting point.
Was Marcion offended with women speaking in tongues or trying to lecture to men?

On the contrary, women played a major role in Marcionte churches based on the information we have. It was the catholics that felt differently about the role of women.

maryhelena · 07-08-2010, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

But if it is not an insertion - then depending upon the dating of Paul - if his letters were written, lets say for the sake of argument, 10 years from the destruction of Jerusalem - then Paul' point re women subject to men would be earlier than Marcion. Marcion or not - I don't think I'd be buying Paul' argument if taken literally. So, I'll be giving him the benefit of doubt and appeal to his better angels.....:angel:

From my understanding, women played active roles in the Marcionite churches. The early catholics had a differing view and made Paul fit that view.

And even earlier in circles around Pythagoras. So, I find it hard to imagine that Paul meant anything other than a figurative take on things - a symbolic or allegorical context. And if Paul is to be viewed as the springboard for a new spiritual movement - and views himself as something of an intellectual - then he surely has done his homework re previous intellectual movements.

Quote:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_P...s_achievements

Pythagoras

<snip>
....the two groups split from each other entirely, with Pythagoras's wife Theano and their two daughters leading the mathematikoi.
Theano, daughter of the Orphic initiate Brontinus, was a mathematician in her own right. She is credited with having written treatises on mathematics, physics, medicine, and child psychology, although nothing of her writing survives. Her most important work is said to have been a treatise on the philosophical principle of the golden mean. In a time when women were usually considered property and relegated to the role of housekeeper or spouse, Pythagoras allowed women to function on equal terms in his society.[3]

maryhelena · 07-08-2010, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Why not try another approach - one not taking Paul literally in this case. Try a figurative approach. Women representing our intellectual or spiritual ability - and man representing out bodily, physical reality. Thus: ideas (represented by 'women') need to be subject to reality (represented by 'men') in order to have some relevance to our lives. Free floating ideas, floating abstractions, might well be interesting as novelties etc - but the real deal is when our ideas are subject to, relate to, our physical realities. In other words, in Paul' terms - when women are subject to men....

Would you see that as an acceptable possibility?
In that case, where would the text switch from the allegorical/figurative to literal?
I think the best approach is to understand the verse literally.
But I'm here to learn.

Make the switch anytime the literal reading makes no logical sense

dog-on · 07-08-2010, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

From my understanding, women played active roles in the Marcionite churches. The early catholics had a differing view and made Paul fit that view.

And even earlier in circles around Pythagoras. So, I find it hard to imagine that Paul meant anything other than a figurative take on things - a symbolic or allegorical context. And if Paul is to be viewed as the springboard for a new spiritual movement - and views himself as something of an intellectual - then he surely has done his homework re previous intellectual movements.

Quote:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_P...s_achievements

Pythagoras

<snip>
....the two groups split from each other entirely, with Pythagoras's wife Theano and their two daughters leading the mathematikoi.
Theano, daughter of the Orphic initiate Brontinus, was a mathematician in her own right. She is credited with having written treatises on mathematics, physics, medicine, and child psychology, although nothing of her writing survives. Her most important work is said to have been a treatise on the philosophical principle of the golden mean. In a time when women were usually considered property and relegated to the role of housekeeper or spouse, Pythagoras allowed women to function on equal terms in his society.[3]

Perhaps, though I find it more credible that 1 Corinthians is a well worked-over document.

Huon · 07-08-2010, 05:31 AM

One could also have a look at the Montanists. But that is not a christian movement of the 1st century...

Chili · 07-08-2010, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Why not try another approach - one not taking Paul literally in this case. Try a figurative approach. Women representing our intellectual or spiritual ability - and man representing out bodily, physical reality. Thus: ideas (represented by 'women') need to be subject to reality (represented by 'men') in order to have some relevance to our lives. Free floating ideas, floating abstractions, might well be interesting as novelties etc - but the real deal is when our ideas are subject to, relate to, our physical realities. In other words, in Paul' terms - when women are subject to men....

Good point but our intellectual ability is not our spiritual ability. Paul wants women to function as their better half or right brain from wherein they see fit to illuminate their husbands left brain as if holding a corrot before him on a stick [and will actually do this without ever taking credit for making him the man he has come to be]. In doing so 'the woman' perceives the physical reality more subjectively (or holistically as seen with the eye of the soul) and will present their contemplated thoughts as an option for him to follow . . . which then is how and why the second river of Gen.2:10-12 'winds' throughout the entire land where power wealth and beauty is to be found.

It is based on the idea that 'free love' marriages are said to be arranged in heaven that so becomes manifest on earth, which then is how and why all good marriages are said to be the same while all bad marriages are different in their own kind of way.

The sanctuary of churches typically represents the conscious mind that is speaking to the soul of man, and yes, the holy of holies is still to be found in the sanctuary of man . . . but not yet for a day or two and when it is found church 'is' no longer here now in the seventh day.

Julio · 07-08-2010, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Oh!
That is a very interesting point.
Was Marcion offended with women speaking in tongues or trying to lecture to men?

On the contrary, women played a major role in Marcionte churches based on the information we have. It was the catholics that felt differently about the role of women.

The catholics of what time?
If the passage was tampered with or inserted say around the middle of the second century, who were the catholics at that time?

Julio · 07-08-2010, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Would you see that as an acceptable possibility?
In that case, where would the text switch from the allegorical/figurative to literal?
I think the best approach is to understand the verse literally.
But I'm here to learn.

Make the switch anytime the literal reading makes no logical sense

Yes.
But if it [a passage] doesn't make [literal] sense to us now - twenty centuries later - does it mean it didn't all the time?

dog-on · 07-08-2010, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

On the contrary, women played a major role in Marcionte churches based on the information we have. It was the catholics that felt differently about the role of women.

The catholics of what time?
If the passage was tampered with or inserted say around the middle of the second century, who were the catholics at that time?

Ireneaus, for instance.

Julio · 07-08-2010, 06:31 AM

OK.
So, we have John the apostle, John the evangelist, Polycarp and next Ireneaus, all disagreeing with Paul on the issue; or was it only Ireneaus who had the objection?
Would the tampering then have occurred sometime in the last part of the second century?
Is there manuscript evident for that?

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07-08-2010, 05:31 AM	#15
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	One could also have a look at the Montanists. But that is not a christian movement of the 1st century...

07-08-2010, 06:31 AM	#20
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	OK. So, we have John the apostle, John the evangelist, Polycarp and next Ireneaus, all disagreeing with Paul on the issue; or was it only Ireneaus who had the objection? Would the tampering then have occurred sometime in the last part of the second century? Is there manuscript evident for that?

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