Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Julio · 04-01-2009, 08:53 AM

Gospel of James [Protevangelium], chapter XIX, verse 2:

"And they stood in the place of the cave: and behold a bright cloud overshadowing the cave. And the midwife said: My soul is magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen marvellous things: for salvation is born unto Israel. And immediately the cloud withdrew itself out of the cave, and a great light appeared in the cave so that our eyes could not endure it. And by little and little that light withdrew itself until the young child appeared: and it went and took the breast of its mother Mary."

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studi...s/gosjames.htm

mountainman · 04-01-2009, 04:54 PM

The bright cloud is a literary device which appears in many other non canonical tractates such as the Apocalypse of Peter, the Epistle of the Apostles, THE GOSPEL according to ST. MATTHEW, the Apocalypse of Paul, perhaps the Acts of Peter, and perhaps others as well.

It mimics "And having spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up, and a cloud received him from their sight." from Acts. It is almost as if some clever and studious Hellenistic romance novelist Homerised the new testament canon. Someone - clearly a heretic - took a leaf out of the new testament canon in a shameful mimicry of outrageous popular fiction.

I wonder who the author was, and when it was written.

Quote:

Author: Schaff, Philip (1819-1893)

I. The Protevangelium of James.—The name of Protevangelium was first given to it by Postel, whose Latin version was published in 1552. The James is usually referred to St. James the Less, the Lord’s brother; but the titles vary very much.15501550 [James the Lord’s brother, in the earliest Christian literature, is not identified with James the son of Alphæus, one of the twelve. On the titles, see footnote on first page of text.—R.] Origen, in the end of the second century, mentions a book of James, but it is by no means clear that he refers to the book in question. Justin Martyr, in two passages, refers to the cave in which Christ was born; and from the end of the fourth century down, there are numerous allusions in ecclesiastical writings to statements made in the Protevangelium.

Manuscript tradition

Some indication of the popularity of the Infancy Gospel of James may be drawn from the fact that about one hundred and thirty Greek manuscripts containing it have survived. The Gospel of James was translated into Syriac, Ethiopic, Coptic, Georgian, Old Slavonic, Armenian, Arabic, Irish and Latin. Though no early Latin versions are known, it was relegated to the apocrypha in the Gelasian decretal, so must have been known in the West. As with the canonical gospels, the vast majority of the manuscripts come from the tenth century or later. The earliest known manuscript of the text, a papyrus dating to the third or early fourth century, was found in 1958; it is kept in the Bodmer Library, Geneva (Papyrus Bodmer 5). Of the surviving Greek manuscripts, the fullest surviving text is a tenth century codex in the Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris (Paris 1454).

mountainman · 04-01-2009, 07:00 PM

The opening lines from "The Acts of Peter and Andrew"

Quote:

When Andrew left the city of the man-eaters,
a cloud of light took him up
and carried him to the mountain
where Peter and Matthias and
Alexander and Rufus were sitting.

Toto · 04-01-2009, 07:44 PM

Matthew 17:5:

Quote:

He was still speaking when a bright cloud suddenly overshadowed them. A voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with him. Keep on listening to him!"

There may be some connection with Job 37:11, although the various translators are not clear if it is a "bright cloud" or lightning, which doesn't make much sense in Matt.

Quote:

11 He loads the clouds with moisture;
he scatters his lightning through them.

12 At his direction they swirl around
over the face of the whole earth
to do whatever he commands them.

13 He brings the clouds to punish men,
or to water his earth [b] and show his love.

I don't see a need to invoke Homer or assume that this is heretical. In the ancient near east, a bright cloud indicated some propitious deity. You can regard it as a popular metaphor or a literary convention, or the physiological effect of an emotional state which expands the pupils of the eyes.

mountainman · 04-01-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I don't see a need to ...[...]... assume that this is heretical.

The tractate was listed as heretical. It was an unauthorised "addition" or "expansion" of the canon, as were the rest of the apocrypha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decretum Gelasianum

the Gospel in the name of James the younger apocryphum

we acknowledge is to be not merely rejected but eliminated from the whole Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and with their authors and the followers of its authors to be damned in the inextricable shackles of anathema forever.

Julio · 04-01-2009, 10:44 PM

Nice to read this material, thanks.
One ignorant question of mine:
Why was this document BANNED [or considered heretical] by the popes
[Gelasius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gelasius_I

That is, in the face of other considered canonical documents having been accepted though their apostolic origin in doubt, like the Epistle to the Laodiceans [of Paul], etc.?
http://reluctant-messenger.com/epistle-laodiceans.htm
Was it perhaps because of the detail of Mary giving birth at 15 years of age IN A CAVE?…

Toto · 04-02-2009, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I don't see a need to ...[...]... assume that this is heretical.

The tractate was listed as heretical. It was an unauthorised "addition" or "expansion" of the canon, as were the rest of the apocrypha....

But I don't think that the bright cloud was the heresy, nor Mary giving birth in a cave - which was was known to Justin Martyr, who was not condemned for heresy. It is speculated that the gospel was declared heretical because "in part [of] this reading of the adelphoi [as sons of Joseph by a previous wife and stepbrothers of Jesus], which corresponded to the developed Eastern Orthodox view rather than the western, i.e. Roman Catholic, view, which treated them as cousins."

Julio · 04-02-2009, 02:45 AM

Is there to be an esoteric meaning in that “great light”, or is it a literary means/trick to represent a real but unexplainable PHYSICAL light?

Toto · 04-02-2009, 12:29 PM

I have met someone trained as a hypnotherapist who is working on a book on the subject of light and religion. His theory is that when people enter a hypnotic state, their pupils dilate and this allows more light in, so they think they are "seeing a great light." Most religious leaders operate by putting their followers into a hypnotic state, and they see more light (auras, etc.) He himself experienced this phenomenon when he was under hypnosis.

If this is true, there is no need to hypothesize a physical light.

Alternatively, this is a literary convention (which may have been originally based on someone's experience in a hypnotic state.)

andrewcriddle · 04-02-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Nice to read this material, thanks.
One ignorant question of mine:
Why was this document BANNED [or considered heretical] by the popes
[Gelasius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gelasius_I

One should note that the list of canonical and non-canonical works known as the Decretum Gelasianum is a later (6th century) work falsely attributed to Pope Gelasius.

Andrew Criddle

04-01-2009, 08:53 AM	#1
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	What was that light? (Gospel of James [Protevangelium], XIX:2) Gospel of James [Protevangelium], chapter XIX, verse 2: "And they stood in the place of the cave: and behold a bright cloud overshadowing the cave. And the midwife said: My soul is magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen marvellous things: for salvation is born unto Israel. And immediately the cloud withdrew itself out of the cave, and a great light appeared in the cave so that our eyes could not endure it. And by little and little that light withdrew itself until the young child appeared: and it went and took the breast of its mother Mary." http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studi...s/gosjames.htm

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04-01-2009, 10:44 PM	#6
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	Nice to read this material, thanks. One ignorant question of mine: Why was this document BANNED [or considered heretical] by the popes [Gelasius http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gelasius_I That is, in the face of other considered canonical documents having been accepted though their apostolic origin in doubt, like the Epistle to the Laodiceans [of Paul], etc.? http://reluctant-messenger.com/epistle-laodiceans.htm Was it perhaps because of the detail of Mary giving birth at 15 years of age IN A CAVE?…

04-02-2009, 02:45 AM	#8
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	Is there to be an esoteric meaning in that “great light”, or is it a literary means/trick to represent a real but unexplainable PHYSICAL light?

04-02-2009, 12:29 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I have met someone trained as a hypnotherapist who is working on a book on the subject of light and religion. His theory is that when people enter a hypnotic state, their pupils dilate and this allows more light in, so they think they are "seeing a great light." Most religious leaders operate by putting their followers into a hypnotic state, and they see more light (auras, etc.) He himself experienced this phenomenon when he was under hypnosis. If this is true, there is no need to hypothesize a physical light. Alternatively, this is a literary convention (which may have been originally based on someone's experience in a hypnotic state.)

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