Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ben C Smith · 12-31-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evil One

Post in haste, repent in leisure. Never is an overstatement. The High Priest was, as I recall, allowed to say it in the Holy of Holies once a year.

According to the Mishnah, the prime witness to an incident of blasphemy was allowed to repeat exactly what he heard the offender say (that is, the sacred name) exactly once, after which the other witnesses would basically say ditto and the priest would rend his clothes.

Ben.

Loomis · 12-31-2006, 04:27 PM

Thanks Toto,

I read the link. Don’t take this personally but I think Joseph Lewis might be clueless.

Quote:

Joseph Lewis from Toto’s link

The Magical Use of God's Name

The Biblical testimony in support of the superstitious belief in the magical power of the supposed name of the Hebrew Deity is voluminous. One significant statement is found in Numbers, Chapter 6, verse 27:

27. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.

I don’t think they had to put Yahweh’s name on the children of Israel because they thought it was magical. I think they had to put Yahweh’s name on the children of Israel because - up to that point - their god was named El.

In fact this may have never happened at all; perhaps the authors are just rewriting history. El may have remained the god of Israel right up until its destruction. Apparently there’s a fragment (or whatever) from Kintullet ajrud that reads:

“the name of El in the days of . . ."

And of course there’s always Genesis 33:20:

“El is the god of Israel”

El was El’s proper name.

How come it wasn’t magic?

How come it wasn’t sacred?

Loomis · 12-31-2006, 04:39 PM

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain."

I’d like to propose a new translation:

"Don’t make fun of the god named Yahweh.”

The postulate for this translation is that El was the god of the Israelites, and that the Israelites thought that the name “Yahweh” was silly.

- Sort of like the way the rest of the world felt when Nissan decided to change their name to Datsun before they began selling cars in the US.

Thomas II · 12-31-2006, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Sure. We’ve all heard it a million times. But how did the taboo come about?

Who started it and why?

What is the stronger motivator to stop saying “Yahweh?”

It pisses off Yahweh when you call him Yahweh?
It pisses off Baal (the LORD) when you call him Yahweh?

Well, imagine!

"Hey!... Yahweh!...Here!...Yahweh!" from every corner of the world, day and night, 24/7, it's enought to make the ol' guy jump and say:

"The next one gets it!!...but good!!!"

And probably some idiot went...."yahweh?......." just to check...

ZAAAPPP!!!!!

And from there to the taboo...

And it's that gods don't take any shit from anyone...They don't have to.

That's why they're gods!

:wave:

Anat · 12-31-2006, 06:14 PM

However the taboo against pronounciation of YHWH came about, by the time of the writing of the Greek scriptures it was already established.

RareBird · 12-31-2006, 06:18 PM

The early christians said "you do it yahweh and we'll do it our way".

gstafleu · 12-31-2006, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

"Don’t make fun of the god named Yahweh.”

Now that I've read a bit about the documentary theory(

), that makes sense. To quote the Wikipedia article:

Quote:

The hypothesis then goes on to state that after the fall of Israel to the Assyrians (ca 720 BC), the refugees from Israel brought E to Judah, and in the interests of assimilating those refugees into the general population, an unknown scribe combined the text with J to produce JE.

So yes, in the interest of getting along clearly the E people should stop making fun of the strange-sounding YHWV. Provided of course that the admonition you state stems from after the time J and E were joined.

Gerard Stafleu

Loomis · 12-31-2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

However the taboo against pronounciation of YHWH came about, by the time of the writing of the Greek scriptures it was already established.

Are you drawing your conclusion from the sole premise that "Yahweh" is absent from the Septuagint?

How do you know that the guys who invented Jesus were even aware of the word “Yahweh” or any prohibitions about saying it - or writing it?

12-31-2006, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evil One

Post in haste, repent in leisure. Never is an overstatement. The High Priest was, as I recall, allowed to say it in the Holy of Holies once a year. And presumably there were occasional transgressors, as there are for any taboo. Furthermore, there must have been a time before the taboo developed when it was spoken openly, or else the word would never have existed in the first place.

Look, all I said was "That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah...Ow!"

Anat · 12-31-2006, 11:00 PM

The Greek Scriptures is a Jewishly-correct name for NT.

I don't know what the authors of the gospels etc knew or did not know, what I know is that the Jews by this time had long stopped pronouncing YHWH, so I can't see how anyone, Jewish or not, would have come up with a pronounciation. I recall documents where YHWH was still written in Phoenician script while everything else was in square script, so obviously this word was treated differently than any other.

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12-31-2006, 04:39 PM	#13
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." I’d like to propose a new translation: "Don’t make fun of the god named Yahweh.” The postulate for this translation is that El was the god of the Israelites, and that the Israelites thought that the name “Yahweh” was silly. - Sort of like the way the rest of the world felt when Nissan decided to change their name to Datsun before they began selling cars in the US.

12-31-2006, 06:14 PM	#15
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	However the taboo against pronounciation of YHWH came about, by the time of the writing of the Greek scriptures it was already established.

12-31-2006, 06:18 PM	#16
RareBird Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 4,607	The early christians said "you do it yahweh and we'll do it our way".

12-31-2006, 11:00 PM	#20
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	The Greek Scriptures is a Jewishly-correct name for NT. I don't know what the authors of the gospels etc knew or did not know, what I know is that the Jews by this time had long stopped pronouncing YHWH, so I can't see how anyone, Jewish or not, would have come up with a pronounciation. I recall documents where YHWH was still written in Phoenician script while everything else was in square script, so obviously this word was treated differently than any other.

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