Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 12-05-2004, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoodleLovinPessimist

You're taking the piss, right? Pulling our legs?

Sadly, no.

Chili · 12-05-2004, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Sadly, no.

You should listen to her (?) because you have two horned mind at the helm these days.

WinAce · 12-05-2004, 01:13 PM

Hmm. Bible prophecy is sooo 1st century. Why not write your own?

Daniel · 12-05-2004, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Now, when was Daniel written?

I have argued here that the visions (7-12) were written just before Antiochus IV's death in about 164 BCE as they don't know how he died, though 11 predicts a (wrong) death for Antiochus.

spin

How does it wrongly predict the death of Antiochus?

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Daniel 11:44-45

The phrase after the semi-colon does not neccessarily mean that he will come to his end between the seas and the mountain, only that he will eventually come to his end.

Daniel · 12-05-2004, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by may

Hi,there are lots of them , these are just a few ,

The fall of tyre .
Cyrus and the fall of babylon.
medo- persia and Greece
The destruction of Jerusalem.
1914The turning point in history.
A people who fulfill prophecy.
:thumbs: may

Well for one thing the propechy concerning Tyre is disputable and I would venture to say that it wouldn't be a difficult thing to predict the destrucion of a wealthy port city over the span of a thousand or so years in the first place.

As far as Daniel goes, I think there are good reasons to doubt the traditional 600 BC dating. First, Daniel goes unmentioned in a book called The Wisdom of Jesus Ben-Sirach, which gives a list of nearly all the prominent Jewish figures up until that point. This list includes all of the twelve minor prophets and the three major prophets except for Daniel. Since this book was written around 200 BC, it is curious as to why a writer seeking to honor his prominent ancestors would refuse to mention Daniel, who by that time would have already successfuly made a number of great predictions. However, this is just one of the problems with the traditional dating of Daniel, and I think that if one examines them all that he could hardly say Daniel makes true predictions about the future.

Brian37 · 12-06-2004, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinAce

Hmm. Bible prophecy is sooo 1st century. Why not write your own?

I dont know about that person, but I'll give it a shot. Here goes:

"I predict that something will happen", mark this on your calander.-Brian37

Diogenes the Cynic · 12-06-2004, 07:35 AM

The answer to the OP is that there is not a single example of legimately fulfilled predictive prophecy in either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament.

There are any number of Messianic or eschatological fantasies which remain completely unfulfilled but that doesn't make them technically "false," I guess.

There is the odd prophecy which was demonstrably false. Daniel's attempts at legitimate predictive prophecy were all completely off the mark and there are also the early Christian expectations of an immediate parousia.

By the way, there is not a single reference to Jesus in the Hebrew Bible and with the exception of being Jewish, Jesus did not fulfill a single Messianic expectation as spelled out in the OT. Most of the rubbish which gets cited as fulfilled OT prophecy for Jesus is not prophecy at all in context and has nothing to do with any Messianic expectations.

It's been my experience that a lot of Christians have no idea how radically the OT/Jewish definition of the Messiah differs from the Christian one.

may · 12-06-2004, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Now, when was Daniel written?

I have argued here that the visions (7-12) were written just before Antiochus IV's death in about 164 BCE as they don't know how he died, though 11 predicts a (wrong) death for Antiochus.

Such a date is consistent with the historical "errors" in the Daniel text regarding a "Darius the Mede" and Belshazzar being the son of Nebuchadnezzar, etc.

So, a dating of Daniel's visions is called for, as I did ask for a dating of the texts you intended to cite. I argue that the so-called prophecies of Daniel are mainly vaticinium ex eventu (after the event). Where they are not, they are wrong.

Quote:

Daniel—A Book on Trial

when it comes to the Bible book of Daniel. Its writer was a man renowned for integrity. The book that bears his name has been highly regarded for thousands of years. It presents itself as authentic history, written by Daniel, a Hebrew prophet who lived during the seventh and sixth centuriesB.C.E. Accurate Biblical chronology shows that his book covers the period extending from about 618 to 536B.C.E. and was completed by the latter date. But the book stands accused. Some encyclopedias and other reference works imply or assert outright that it is a fraud.

For example, The New Encyclopædia Britannica acknowledges that the book of Daniel was once “generally considered to be true history, containing genuine prophecy.�? The Britannica claims that in reality, however, Daniel “was written in a later time of national crisis—whenthe Jews were suffering severe persecution under [Syrian King] AntiochusIV Epiphanes.�? The encyclopedia dates the book between 167 and 164B.C.E. This same work asserts that the writer of the book of Daniel does not prophesy the future but simply presents “events that are past history to him as prophecies of future happenings.�?

Where do such ideas originate? Criticism of the book of Daniel is not new. It started back in the third centuryC.E. with a philosopher named Porphyry. Like many in the Roman Empire, he felt threatened by the influence of Christianity. He wrote 15 books to undermine this “new�? religion. The 12th was directed against the book of Daniel. Porphyry pronounced the book a forgery, written by a Jew in the second centuryB.C.E. Similar attacks came in the 18th and 19th centuries. In the view of higher critics and rationalists, prophecy—the foretelling of future events—is impossible. Daniel became a favorite target. In effect, he and his book were put on trial in court. Critics claimed to have ample proof that the book was written, not by Daniel during the Jewish exile in Babylon, but by someone else centuries later. Such attacks became so profuse that one author even wrote a defense called Daniel in the Critics’ Den.

Is there proof behind the confident assertions of the critics? Or does the evidence back the defense? A lot is at stake here. It is not just the reputation of this ancient book but also our future that is involved. If the book of Daniel is a fraud, its promises for mankind’s future are just hollow words at best. But if it contains genuine prophecies, doubtless we will be eager to learn what these mean for us today.

edited by mod to add URL for above quote:

http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/mi...hapter_two.htm

©1999 Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania

The above quote is within the fair use exception to copyright laws, and the URL is difficult to read, so I will not edit it out.

may · 12-06-2004, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

By the way, there is not a single reference to Jesus in the Hebrew Bible and with the exception of being Jewish, Jesus did not fulfill a single Messianic expectation as spelled out in the OT. Most of the rubbish which gets cited as fulfilled OT prophecy for Jesus is not prophecy at all in context and has nothing to do with any Messianic expectations.

It's been my experience that a lot of Christians have no idea how radically the OT/Jewish definition of the Messiah differs from the Christian one.

Quote:

The Hebrew Scriptures contain scores of prophecies fulfilled in the birth, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus. For example, more than 700 years in advance, Micah foretold that the Messiah, or Christ, would be born in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2; Luke 2:4-7) Micah’s contemporary Isaiah foretold that the Messiah would be struck and spit upon. (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67) Five hundred years in advance, Zechariah prophesied that the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15) More than a thousand years beforehand, David foretold circumstances associated with the death of Jesus the Messiah. (Psalm 22:7, 8,18; Matthew 27:35, 39-43) And some five centuries in advance, Daniel’s prophecy revealed when the Messiah would appear as well as the length of his ministry and the time of his death. (Daniel 9:24-27) This is just a sampling of the prophecies fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

edited by mod to add source:

The Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life
http://www.geocities.com/tbdudgeon/Knowledge_Book.txt

hosted on a site that claims to be
Office of Public Information of Jehovah's Witnesses

PoodleLovinPessimist · 12-06-2004, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by may

For example, more than 700 years in advance, Micah foretold that the Messiah, or Christ, would be born in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2; Luke 2:4-7)

Oh man. It just doesn't occur to you that the Jesus' birth in Bethlehem was written into Luke because of the "prophecy"?

Quote:

Micah’s contemporary Isaiah foretold that the Messiah would be struck and spit upon. (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67)

That's a prophecy? :rolling:

Quote:

Five hundred years in advance, Zechariah prophesied that the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15) More than a thousand years beforehand, David foretold circumstances associated with the death of Jesus the Messiah. (Psalm 22:7, 8,18; Matthew 27:35, 39-43)

Again, this was written into the story because of the earlier "prophecy".

Quote:

And some five centuries in advance, Daniel’s prophecy revealed when the Messiah would appear as well as the length of his ministry and the time of his death. (Daniel 9:24-27)

And you've already been told that the dating of Daniel is highly controversial.

Quote:

This is just a sampling of the prophecies fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Zero for five. Quite a "sample".

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12-05-2004, 01:13 PM	#13
WinAce Beloved Deceased Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 1,539	Hmm. Bible prophecy is sooo 1st century. Why not write your own?

12-06-2004, 07:35 AM	#17
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	The answer to the OP is that there is not a single example of legimately fulfilled predictive prophecy in either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament. There are any number of Messianic or eschatological fantasies which remain completely unfulfilled but that doesn't make them technically "false," I guess. There is the odd prophecy which was demonstrably false. Daniel's attempts at legitimate predictive prophecy were all completely off the mark and there are also the early Christian expectations of an immediate parousia. By the way, there is not a single reference to Jesus in the Hebrew Bible and with the exception of being Jewish, Jesus did not fulfill a single Messianic expectation as spelled out in the OT. Most of the rubbish which gets cited as fulfilled OT prophecy for Jesus is not prophecy at all in context and has nothing to do with any Messianic expectations. It's been my experience that a lot of Christians have no idea how radically the OT/Jewish definition of the Messiah differs from the Christian one.

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