Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 03-29-2011, 03:11 PM

This is how Justin Martyr quotes Jesus at the end of chapter 47 of Dialogue with Trypho. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm)

Very similar sentence is also found at the beginning of last chapter of Josephus's Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Discou...ncerning_Hades)

Is there any more information about this passage?

avi · 03-30-2011, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia, with respect to 'Discourse to the Greeks'

Erroneously attributed to the Jewish historian since at least the 9th century, it is now believed to be (at least in its original form) the work of Hippolytus of Rome.

yes, this is the problem with "patristic" sources....

So, we can perhaps, rephrase your query:

Did Hippolytus steal Justin Martyr's quote, without providing acknowledgement?

avi

vid · 03-30-2011, 01:55 PM

Well, Justin has more of those quotes from "memoirs of apostles" that are not found in any of our gospels. Simpler explanation might be that both works were quoting some now-lost gospel.

We should probably explore this 'Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades' deepr. Anyone knows more of it? What is the evidence for assigning authorship of that document to Hippolytus?

Toto · 03-30-2011, 02:18 PM

vid - see the wiki entry

Quote:

. . .The attribution to Josephus, recorded by Photius in his Bibliotheca,[3] did not stand unchallenged even in antiquity, and the "Discourse" was also ascribed to Caius, Presbyter of Rome, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus.[5]

We now know that a work by Hippolytus published in Vol. 5 of the Ante-Nicene Fathers under the title "Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe" is essentially the same work as the "Discourse" attributed to Josephus.[6] This Hippolytus work is in fact a fragment from a longer treatise entitled "Against the Greeks." [7] There are, however, some slight differences between the Hippolytus version and the one that has passed under Josephus' name, notably in the final "Josephus" paragraph. This includes the "In whatsoever ways I shall find you" quote mentioned above, which is not in Hippolytus' fragment as given in the Ante-Nicene Fathers but does appear in Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho (chapter 47), where it is also attributed to Jesus.[2] [8]

GakuseiDon · 03-30-2011, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Well, Justin has more of those quotes from "memoirs of apostles" that are not found in any of our gospels. Simpler explanation might be that both works were quoting some now-lost gospel.

Could he be using Papias' "five books"? Papias wrote (my emphasis):

I did not, like the multitude, take pleasure in those who spoke much, but in those who taught the truth; nor in those who related strange commandments, but in those who rehearsed the commandments given by the Lord to faith, and proceeding from truth itself. If, then, any one who had attended on the elders came, I asked minutely after their sayings,--what Andrew or Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the Lord's disciples: which things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say...

Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered...

Papias also recounted a story about the death of Judas, suggesting that he included stories about the apostles as well as sayings that they had remembered from Jesus. So his writings arguably could have been seen as "memoirs of the apostles", containing stories and sayings about the apostles that Papias had collected. Probably not the case, but an interesting possibility.

vid · 03-31-2011, 01:45 AM

Not impossible, but since vast majority of those "memoirs of apostles" quotes comes from "our" synoptic gospels or something very close (there are few related to Luke but usually simpler, and few which appear like harmonization of Luke and Matthew), I don't think this is very probable. At least from few of those "shorter Luke" quotes, and those quotes not found anywhere else, it really seems Justin had some source (also used by Luke? remember his "many have already written") which we now don't have. For what we know, it might have been Q itself, or different synoptic gospel like Egerton

03-29-2011, 03:11 PM	#1
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	In whatsoever things I shall take you, in these I shall judge you This is how Justin Martyr quotes Jesus at the end of chapter 47 of Dialogue with Trypho. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm) Very similar sentence is also found at the beginning of last chapter of Josephus's Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Discou...ncerning_Hades) Is there any more information about this passage?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-30-2011, 01:55 PM	#3
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	Well, Justin has more of those quotes from "memoirs of apostles" that are not found in any of our gospels. Simpler explanation might be that both works were quoting some now-lost gospel. We should probably explore this 'Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades' deepr. Anyone knows more of it? What is the evidence for assigning authorship of that document to Hippolytus?

03-31-2011, 01:45 AM	#6
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	Not impossible, but since vast majority of those "memoirs of apostles" quotes comes from "our" synoptic gospels or something very close (there are few related to Luke but usually simpler, and few which appear like harmonization of Luke and Matthew), I don't think this is very probable. At least from few of those "shorter Luke" quotes, and those quotes not found anywhere else, it really seems Justin had some source (also used by Luke? remember his "many have already written") which we now don't have. For what we know, it might have been Q itself, or different synoptic gospel like Egerton

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.