Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshonq · 01-21-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Sorry, were the Greeks ever scattered among the nations for two thousand years, while Greece laid in ruins, and then miraculously return to it's homeland in absolute fulfillment of prophecy?

You haven't proven that this applies to Jews. I gave you the criteria; you're apparently too lazy to do the necessary homework.

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I like the fact that Johny S. calls this "a self-fulfilled prophecy" meaning that the prophecy came true. He neglects the fact that all throughout the old testament God uses the military/politics of other nations for his own good purpose.:wave:

Except that particular defense has already been shot down, remember? Whenever God worked through people, He mentioned the people He would use by name. Yet he failed to do so in the case of Israel. Apparently this isn't fulfilled prophecy after all.

makerowner · 01-21-2008, 12:50 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

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Originally Posted by makerowner

Daniel probably didn't exist, so there's no reason to suppose that he was executed. Also, if he did exist, he was living under foreign governments, who most likely would not have cared much about Jewish religious law. The easily observable fact is that Daniel is not included among the prophets in any Jewish bible.

So i suppose your in the school of thought that the Book of Daniel is a forgery? :huh:

Depends on what you mean by forgery. Was it written by a Jewish official in the Babylonian and Persian courts? No. I'm told by those who speak the language that the style of Hebrew is very different from the real Exilic works. It also gets many historical details from the 6th century wrong (eg. Darius the Mede never existed), gets better as it approaches the 2nd century, and then goes way off after 167 BC (eg. no mention of the rededication of the temple, wrong details of Antiochus's death). Everything in the text is consistent with a 2nd century date, and many things are inconsistent with a 6th century date.
BTW, using the :huh: smilie all the time makes you seem like a jerk.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-21-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

So I suppose you're in the school of thought that the Book of Daniel is a forgery?

Partly. At http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...tz/critic.html, you will find an article that reasonably proves that the book of Daniel is fraudulent, and amazingly, by using Josh McDowell's OWN sources. The article reasonably proves that the book of Daniel could not possibly have been written by one man, and during the time that Daniel lived.

May I ask why you are discussing the book of Daniel in a thread about the Trye prophecy? If you believe that the Tyre prophecy cannot stand upon its own merits, which appears to be the case, and that the book of Daniel can stand upon its own merits, which also appears to be the case, then let's debate the book of Daniel in the thread about the book of Daniel that I recently started.

It does not make any sense for you to try to validate the Tyre prophecy by using the book of Daniel.

arnoldo · 01-21-2008, 12:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Does the existence of Palestinians prove the existence of the God of the Muslims?

No. Does the Partition of Palestine prove the existence of the God of the Jews? No, it proves the existence of a self-fulfilled Bible prophecy. No Bible = no motives for the ways that Palestine was partitioned = no Partition of Palestine.

Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham, or Issac if you wish, ALL of the land of Canaan. You yourself said that Jews have never occupied all of the land of Canaan. Thus, regarding the Partition of Palestine, the Jews could not possibly have recovered a nation that they never had.

God promised Abraham the land and he will have it. You neglect the fact that Abraham will be resurected. The fact that you misunderstand or misinterpret scripture is self evident. Have you ever read the bible?

arnoldo · 01-21-2008, 12:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

So I suppose you're in the school of thought that the Book of Daniel is a forgery?

Partly. If you believe that the Tyre prophecy cannot stand upon its own merits, which appears to be the case, and that the book of Daniel can stand upon its own merits, which also appears to be the case, then let's debate the book of Daniel in the thread about the book of Daniel that I recently started.
.

Ok, i will check out the appropriate thread for this particular discussion.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-21-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Does the existence of Palestinians prove the existence of the God of the Muslims?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

No. Does the Partition of Palestine prove the existence of the God of the Jews? No, it proves the existence of a self-fulfilled Bible prophecy. No Bible = no motives for the ways that Palestine was partitioned = no Partition of Palestine.

Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham, or Issac if you wish, ALL of the land of Canaan. You yourself said that Jews have never occupied all of the land of Canaan. Thus, regarding the Partition of Palestine, the Jews could not possibly have recovered a nation that they never had.

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

God promised Abraham the land and he will have it.

No he won't. There is not any credible evidence at all that God made a land promise to Abraham.

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

You neglect the fact that Abraham will be resurrected.

No he won't since there is not one single Bible prophecy that can be reasonably proven to have been inspired by God.

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

The fact that you misunderstand or misinterpret Scripture is self evident.

Rather, the fact that you misunderstand or misinterpret history is self evident.

If God really wanted people to believe that he can predict the future, he would have told Ezekiel about Alexander.

makerowner · 01-21-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

God promised Abraham the land and he will have it. You neglect the fact that Abraham will be resurected. The fact that you misunderstand or misinterpret scripture is self evident. Have you ever read the bible?

If, as you have stated several times, the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled, how does it prove God's existence?

Kharakov · 01-21-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Fine. Do modern-day Hindus prove that the existence of Hindu gods?

Modern-day Hindus believe in their gods. Since that is your criterion for the bible God, then the Hindu gods must exist too, since they have modern believers.

Actually the Hindu "gods" are manifestations of the one Godhead.

So the modern Hindu believers believe in the same being, they just worship it differently.

In fact, Hindus might go as far as saying all gods of all religions are manifestations of the one true God, which encompasses all being, beings, and ability to be.

Basically, by bringing up Hinduism, you brought up the belief that all gods are manifestations of the one true God.

You did checkmate yourself. Good job.

sugarhitman · 01-21-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

IMHO, the prophet Daniel prophesies that a "7 year peace plan' will happen in the near future. TIme will tell if this happens or not.

The Jews knew that Daniel was not prophet. That's why he's in the other books (ketubim) and not the prophets (nebiim). This is a christian error. Daniel, the character was a teller of dreams and a seer of visions. These visions center on events concerning the persecution of the Jews by the little horn along with the events leading up to the persecution. The vision in Dan 11 is an extended analysis of the Syrian Wars as seen from Jerusalem, ending with the persecution of the Jews by Antiochus IV (who on close inspection is also the little horn), but no matter how complete one demonstrates the context of Dan 7-12 the will to believe will not allow sense to shine through.

spin

David was a king but yet prophesied, he is not in the book of the prophets but yet prophecies of the Messiah are in his psalms. Daniel was a statesmen for foriegn kingdoms but yet had prophesied. David nor Daniel preached nor prohesied to Isreali kings people and government that the other prophets did. That is why they are not in the book of the prophets. But Jesus did consider both Daniel and David as prophets. Daniel prohecies certainly proves that God Exist as well as Israel and Tyre. :wave:

Johnny Skeptic · 01-21-2008, 01:07 PM

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Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Edit: Deletion of duplicate post.

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