Freethought & Rationalism Archive

unknown4 · 08-25-2004, 05:14 PM

Does anyone know what this text is actually trying to say? Christians claim it was fulfilled with Jesus (though the NT doesn't refer to this verse to my knowledge), Jews say it refers to a future Messiah.

Is this verse even Messianic? Can it be proven it existed before the time of Jesus?

Interesting to me, the Septuagint doesn't translate this verse as the Hebrew does. The Septuagint reads something like: A ruler shall not fail from Juda, nor a prince from his loins, until there come the things stored up for him; and he is the expectation of nations.

So, what does Genesis 49:10 really say, and can it be proven that it was written before Jesus' time?

Any help is appreciated.

Toto · 08-25-2004, 05:33 PM

In context:

Quote:

Genesis 49

Jacob Blesses His Sons

1 Then Jacob called for his sons and said: "Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come.

2 "Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob;
listen to your father Israel.

. . .

8 "Judah, [2] your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father's sons will bow down to you.
9 You are a lion's cub, O Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness-who dares to rouse him?
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he comes to whom it belongs [3]
and the obedience of the nations is his.
11 He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk. [4]

. . .

[3] 49:10 Or until Shiloh comes ; or until he comes to whom tribute belongs
[4] 49:12 Or will be dull from wine, / his teeth white from milk

Warthur · 08-26-2004, 04:03 AM

Interestingly, my New English Version translates it as:

"The sceptre shall not pass from Judah,
nor the staff from his descendants,
so long as tribute is brought to him
and the obediance of the nations is his."

Which doesn't seem messianic at all.

Did the NEV translators misinterpret it here, or did they make the original meaning more clear?

post tenebras lux · 08-26-2004, 05:57 AM

Hi, this is the translation my jewish website gives:

י לֹ�?-יָסוּר ש�?ֵבֶט מִיהוּדָה, וּמְחֹקֵק מִבֵּין רַגְלָיו, עַד כִּי-יָבֹ�? ש�?ִילֹה, וְלוֹ יִקְּהַת עַמִּי�?. 10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, as long as men come to Shiloh; and unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.

And this is that chapter's page from said website.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0149.htm

PS If anyone has reasons to think this site may be biased in its translations please let me know.

Luxie

jbernier · 08-26-2004, 06:41 AM

It is only Messianic when located within the rest of the Tanakh. Judah is, in the Former Prophets (the Historical Books in the Protestant terminology), said to be the ancestor of David. Now, one of the main ideas of "Messiah" is an anointed royal figure (indeed, each king would have been a "messiah"). Thus, as the progenitor of the royal family Judah would also be a progenitor of the "anointed", kingly, lineage. Was that the original purpose behind this text? We do not know for sure, I would say. I think it quite likely that this was introduced into the text as part of the redaction history which sought to line up the history of the Davidic line with the primordial stories of Israel's origins. This, I suspect, happened long before the time of Jesus; early Christians then connected the story of Jesus with this long-standing story of a royal line which starts (at least in seminal form) with one of the sons of Jacob (Israel), whose was blessed and prophesied as a house of rulers right from the start.

Warthur · 08-26-2004, 08:43 AM

So the passage is essentially saying "The house of David, descended from Judah, has always been the rightful ruling house of Israel, and always will be?" Interesting.

I've often wondered why Israel isn't a constitutional monarchy with a king in a mainly ceremonial/religious role. Is there nobody left in the world with a credible genealogy going back to the house of David?

08-25-2004, 05:14 PM	#1
unknown4 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 80	Genesis 49:10 Does anyone know what this text is actually trying to say? Christians claim it was fulfilled with Jesus (though the NT doesn't refer to this verse to my knowledge), Jews say it refers to a future Messiah. Is this verse even Messianic? Can it be proven it existed before the time of Jesus? Interesting to me, the Septuagint doesn't translate this verse as the Hebrew does. The Septuagint reads something like: A ruler shall not fail from Juda, nor a prince from his loins, until there come the things stored up for him; and he is the expectation of nations. So, what does Genesis 49:10 really say, and can it be proven that it was written before Jesus' time? Any help is appreciated.

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08-26-2004, 04:03 AM	#3
Warthur Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 241	Interestingly, my New English Version translates it as: "The sceptre shall not pass from Judah, nor the staff from his descendants, so long as tribute is brought to him and the obediance of the nations is his." Which doesn't seem messianic at all. Did the NEV translators misinterpret it here, or did they make the original meaning more clear?

08-26-2004, 05:57 AM	#4
post tenebras lux Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Republic and Canton of Geneva Posts: 5,756	Hi, this is the translation my jewish website gives: י לֹ�?-יָסוּר ש�?ֵבֶט מִיהוּדָה, וּמְחֹקֵק מִבֵּין רַגְלָיו, עַד כִּי-יָבֹ�? ש�?ִילֹה, וְלוֹ יִקְּהַת עַמִּי�?. 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, as long as men come to Shiloh; and unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be. And this is that chapter's page from said website. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0149.htm PS If anyone has reasons to think this site may be biased in its translations please let me know. Luxie

08-26-2004, 06:41 AM	#5
jbernier Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: ON, Canada Posts: 1,011	It is only Messianic when located within the rest of the Tanakh. Judah is, in the Former Prophets (the Historical Books in the Protestant terminology), said to be the ancestor of David. Now, one of the main ideas of "Messiah" is an anointed royal figure (indeed, each king would have been a "messiah"). Thus, as the progenitor of the royal family Judah would also be a progenitor of the "anointed", kingly, lineage. Was that the original purpose behind this text? We do not know for sure, I would say. I think it quite likely that this was introduced into the text as part of the redaction history which sought to line up the history of the Davidic line with the primordial stories of Israel's origins. This, I suspect, happened long before the time of Jesus; early Christians then connected the story of Jesus with this long-standing story of a royal line which starts (at least in seminal form) with one of the sons of Jacob (Israel), whose was blessed and prophesied as a house of rulers right from the start.

08-26-2004, 08:43 AM	#6
Warthur Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 241	So the passage is essentially saying "The house of David, descended from Judah, has always been the rightful ruling house of Israel, and always will be?" Interesting. I've often wondered why Israel isn't a constitutional monarchy with a king in a mainly ceremonial/religious role. Is there nobody left in the world with a credible genealogy going back to the house of David?

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