IamJoseph

It is about the belief of Jews, and a divine human is absolutely not negotiable here. This was of course known by the Romans, as well as by the church when it took over. In effect, the Jews were being genocided physically and spiritually via Rome's might and by the church's theology, with demands they knew would never be accepted, and made the only condition open to the Jews. Thus this appears a battle for freedom of belief, and has become the real cross, borne by the Jews. Its another view.

spamandham

In case you've forgotten, this exchange involves the beliefs of an individual man, Paul, not the general beliefs and conditions of Jews of the time. It is your claim that Paul could not have believed in a god incarnate. I'm asking you to support that claim or admit that you can not possibly know what every individual Jew who ever lived believed.

Thus far, all you've done is supply your interpretation of general Jewish history, which says nothing whatsoever about what individual Jews may have believed.

aa5874

Based on Tacitus Annals 15.44, there were people called Christians by the populace at Rome in the first century, it is just that there is no evidence that the people called Christians believed in Jesus or that the name was derived from an actual person who was called Jesus.

According to Tertullian, the word "Christian" is derived from "anointing", therefore it is very likely that Jews were called Christians in the first century by people in Rome, that is, Jews were called the "anointed ones", the Christians, and could have been called the "anointed ones" hundreds of years before the story of Jesus, the disciples and Paul.

In the LXX, King David was the christ of God, or the anointed of God.

2Sa 23:1 - The first appearance of the words "christian" or "chrestian" are not indicators of the start of belief in Jesus Christ.

Apparently, there were Jews, perhaps hundreds of thousands, who were christians and chrestians long before the Jesus story.

DCHindley

Hmmm,

How about Cyrus the Great:

Esias 45:1 Thus saith the Lord God to my anointed Cyrus, whose right hand I have held, that nations might be obedient before him; and I will break through the strength of kings; I will open doors before him, and cities shall not be closed. 2 I will go before thee, and will level mountains: I will break to pieces brazen doors, and burst iron bars. 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, I will open to thee hidden, unseen treasures, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord thy God, that call thee by name, am the God of Israel. 4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel mine elect, I will call thee by thy name, and accept thee: but thou hast not known me. 5 For I am the Lord God, and there is no other God beside me; I strengthened thee, and thou hast not known me. 6 That they that come from the east and they that come from the west may know that there is no God but me. I am the Lord God, and there is none beside. 7 I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.

Sir Lancelot Brenton's Translation of the Septuagint

In Greek, what Brenton translats as "anointed" would be "Christ."

1 outws legei kurios o qeos tw cristw mou kurw

http://spindleworks.com/septuagint/Isaiah.htm

Perhaps we have throngs of Jews from Persia demanding th Roman emperor free them like Cyrus did almost 600 years prior. Seriously, though, why can't "christians" simply mean "messianists"? Those Jews were agitating for a new just messianic kingdom of God to replace the despotic Roman empire.

DCH

mountainman

Apparently, there were also Greeks, perhaps millions,
doing the same thing, since we are dealing in the
literary dimension of Greek stories and the epigrapic
remains of greek inscriptions. The words are Hellenic.
They appeared in Greek. In front of a Greek audience.
Carlo.

Tyro

Still, the earliest mentions of Chrestiani or Christiani referring to any group at all is in Tacitus and Suetonius, and they are writing about the reign of Nero. There is no evidence, except Acts, to confirm any use of the word Christiani (even referring to "the anointed"), before Nero's reign, and not even Acts confirm the term being used in 37 CE or earlier. So your theory is that Jucundus Chrestianus refers to some kind of Messiah believer, a "Christian" in this sense?

We have no evidence at all for any Chrestiani or Christiani, referring to a group, before the presumed death of Jesus. The claim about millions or hundreds of thousands of Christiani or Chrestiani, believing in something different from the Pauline believes or the Gospel ones, in the first century, is unsunstantiated to say the least. Would Suetonius and Tacitus, when naming the Christiani/Chrestiani be talking about a different "new superstition" than Pliny the Younger did in about the same time?

mountainman

We are explicitly referring to two greek words.
The commonest of them being "Good Chrestos".
Like Good Old Thor to the Vikings.
The epigraphic useage is for the audience of Greeks.
It is the language of the Greeks - the Hellenes.
The Greeks despite popular opinion had a late
Second Sophistic and the greeks were very much
in literature until the fourth century.

The "millions" refers to the audience of whoever
it was that authored these inscriptions to what
must remain as yet an unknown "chrestos ...".

If we take off our christian glasses, even the Stark
Demographic model which claims so many thousand
christians each century, we must understand that
the odds are that these inscriptions have absolutely
nothing to do with the HJ or the historical "early
christians". They are Hellenistic.

The name "CHRISTOS" was retrojected.
The name is not even written other than in
its nomina sacra form in the earliest ms.

My take on it is that it was simply a religion
for the common people and was as plain
and simple as you can get, as follows:

1) Chrestos = Good.
2) Chrestos God = Good God.
3) Christos God sounds like Good God.
4) Close enough for the Greek in the Street.
5) Christos/Chrestos - the Good God.

Fourth Century public relations on a large scale.
Ammianus Marcellinus tells us precisely that he
considered it to be a "plain and simple religion".

aa5874

Well, perhaps millions of Greeks and Romans referred to Jews as "the anointed ones", but it it is certain that the word transliterated as "christ" in greek meaning "the anointed" has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus.

Jews could be called the anointed ones without an actual Jesus or Jesus story. The Septuagint predates the Jesus story and in the Septuagint, David , Ezra, high priests and Jewish people in general were considered the anointed of the Lord or the anointed or simply "christ".

Jewish people were the anointed ones, Jews were christians and this appellation had nothing whatsoever to do with an actual Jesus or the Jesus story.

And further if a person was not circumcised they could not claim to be "anointed of the Lord", such a person could not be deemed to be "christ".

The anointed ones, the "christs," worship on Sabbath days in the synagogues, not on the 1st day of the week on Sundays.

Examine Acts 9.1-2, Jesus believers do not worship on Sabbath days in the synagogues of the Jews, so why is Saul asking for permissdion to enter synagogues?

Because the Jews were called christians, the anointred ones and they worship on Sabbath days in the synagogues.

Acts 9:1-2 - The Romans referred to Jews as Christians. Saul was a Roman. Saul refered to Jews as Christians. Based on the story in Acts, Saul was persecuting Jews, not Jesus believers.

In Acts, Saul admits he was a Roman.
.
Ac 22:27 - The earliest inscription of the words christian or chrestian has no bearing whatsoever to do with Jesus or Jesus believers.

People were called Christians who did not even mention the name of Jesus.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lus-book1.html

Theophilus to Autolycus.

It is not necesary to be believe in Jesus to be a christian. The earliest inscription of the word christian or chrestian is not an indicator of the origin or beginning of the Jesus story or start of any religion that believed in Jesus.

IamJoseph

Originally, the word comes from the Hebrew. The Hebrew word Moshiach [Redeemer/Messiah] was transated as Christos by the Greeks in the Septuagint.

aa5874

If the books called Leviticus, Samuel, Isaiah or Psalms were written before Daniel, then Christ, "the anointed one" preceeded Christ "the Messiah".

King David was christ before Daniel's dream or vision of a messiah.

In the OT, only the book called Daniel mentioned the word "Messiah", all other books contain the word "anointed" meaning "christ" in Greek.