Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 12-26-2007, 10:20 AM

to makerowner but you did say Nebu sieged the island. I want to know what does history say about that (absolutly nothing). How did he siege island Tyre for 13 years with no success ( but interestingly enough Tyre decides to pay tribute to Babylon after he failed in his campaign)? Come on you must have something seeing you are so confident in your arguments.

sugarhitman · 12-26-2007, 10:21 AM

makerowner you are not disproving only rejecting...what a poor debater you are indeed.

makerowner · 12-26-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

to makerowner but you did say Nebu sieged the island. I want to know what does history say about that (absolutly nothing). How did he siege island Tyre for 13 years with no success ( but interestingly enough Tyre decides to pay tribute to Babylon after he failed in his campaign)? Come on you must have something seeing you are so confident in your arguments.

If you want to argue about this, do it in the Tyre thread.

Johnny Skeptic · 12-26-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

There are many who have attacked the prophecies of the Bible such as those by Daniel, those about Tyre and others.

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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

And with good reason. There good evidence that all of the book of Daniel was not written by Daniel. In addition, since God did not give Nebuchadnezzar Tyre as promised, God is a liar.

You conveniently did not reply to those arguments. One lie is all that it takes to discredit Christianity. You have conveniently continued to refuse to discuss God's failure to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as he promised to do.

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

From my recent debates and experiences with these people it is clear by their lackluster criticisms and attacks that they are not disproving prophecy but rejecting them (a big difference by the way).

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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

But it is not up to skeptics to disprove Bible prophecies, but they have adequately done so anyway.

You conveniently did not reply to that argument.

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

I have another which will prove most difficult to even reject....The prophecies concerning Israel which were written even in the days of Moses.

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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Actually, God's supposed interest in Israel is one of the easiest parts of the Bible to disprove. Historically, Jews certainly have not been protected by God. The Philistines, the Egyptians, Nebuchadnezzar, and Trajan demolished the Jews on numerous occasions. In the early part of the second century, Trajan went to Palestine to put down a Jewish uprising. He killed 500,000 Jews. Perhaps you will claim that if God has not protected the Jews, Trajan would have killed 1,000,000 Jews.

God promised Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of ancient Palestine. Today, Jews do not occupy all of the land of ancient Palestine, and there is not any credible evidence that they ever did.

It is interesting to note that even though the Old Testament claims that the messiah would be a genetic descendant of David, Matthew indicates that Jesus was not a genetic descendant of David.

No rational God who wanted people to believe that he specifically exists would ever use copies of copies of ancient written texts as a primary means of communciating with humans without supplementing the texts with lots of personal appearances. He would know that using written texts would invite dissent instead of discouraging dissent, and that lots of personal appearances would be helpful, not harmful. If some personal appearances by God today would not be helpful, it is reasonable to assume that post-Resurrection appearances by Jesus would not have been helpful either.

You conveniently did not reply to those arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

You must have not been reading closely, but I will make it crystal clear to you...or rather scripture will.

"Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: "I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said 'I will never break My covenant with you. And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their alters.' But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? Therefore I also said,'I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you." So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept." Judges 2: 1-5. The Jews because of disobediance were unable to force those nations out of their land so they could posses all what God had promised them. And those nations to this day has been a thorn in their side in the dispute over that land, but God has promised an end to this as well. "Thus says the Lord God: "Because the enemy has said of you, 'Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,' "Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people....Behold I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations.....I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. But you, O mountians of Israel you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come." Eze. 35. The Jews are back Israel is restored...The times of the Gentiles is rapidly approaching.

Johnny says (or rather accusing God of allowing the Jews to suffer and of breaking His promises) why did God allow this or look at all the Jews who died from the hands of such and such? Well let God explain: After the Gog Magog war (the last war in the middle east...Armegeddon) God says: " The Gentiles (you Johnny) shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell from the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them." Eze. 39. Ah, anymore questions?

How does any of that reasonably prove that God made a land promise to Abraham and his descendants?

Are you by any chance making a case that the Bible is inerrant?

Consider the following from another thread:

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

To Johnny: God gives us prophecies because there is only one Person who can....God.

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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

But that is not a reason WHY God predicts the future. The word WHY deals with MOTIVES. You did not state any motives. Please do so.

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And this is the key to separating lying beliefs from the Truth.

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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

How do you define the word "truth"? In addition, whatever your definition is, during Old Testament times, how did God reveal the truth to people who lived far away from Palestine?

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And just as Jesus spoke in parables to conceal the meaning from those not interested.......

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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Well that is easily dismissed by the simple fact that even Christians themselves have disputed much of what the Bible says ever since Christianity was founded, and have often killed each other over disputes regarding interpretations of the Bible. Do Origen and Eusebius agree with your interpretations of the Bible? In addition, everyone is interested in whether or not there are beings who are able to predict the future. Further, you have not stated any good reasons why God would want to conceal evidence from skeptics. Please do so.

Please be advised that there is not any credible historical evidence that Jesus said most or all of what the New Testament says that he said. If you would like to debate inerrancy and divine inspiration of the originals, I will start a new thread at this forum about those issues.

Not only that, but Christians would certainly be interested if Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander, so obviously your claim that "Jesus spoke in parables to conceal the meaning from those not interested" was false. If Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander, it is reasonble to assume that there would be more Christians in the world today. There is in fact not one single mentally competent person in the world who is not interested in where they will spend eternity, and under what conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

.......or who have no love for The Truth so is the prophecies of God. Because Those who value truth and God with seek for it even if it is hidden from plain sight. You keep asking "why don't God just give us a specific date or name then maybe we'll believe." No you won't, you'll just convince (deceive) yourselves that this too is false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Convince ourselves that what is false? If God showed up and predicted when and where some natural disasters would occur, most people would agree that he is able to predict the future.

If God showed up and was asked "Why do you kill people and innocent animals with hurricanes?," and answered the question, are you certain that you would approve of his answer no matter what he said? I am convinced that there are not any fair, worthy, and just goals that cannot be achieved without killing people and innocent animals with hurricanes.

You are obviously not aware that time and cirumstance determine what people believe, not the God of the Bible. There is no doubt whatsoever that under certain conditions, including living in certain time periods, you woud not have been a Jew or a fundamentalist Christian. It is my position that a loving God would not allow what people believe to be determined by chance and circumstance.

makerowner · 12-26-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

makerowner you are not disproving only rejecting...what a poor debater you are indeed.

Why don't you try reading what the Bible actually says, instead of what you want it to say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 3:23

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

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Originally Posted by Matthew 1:16

[16] And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

There are two contradictory claims of Joseph's ancestry here, not Mary's.

Johnny Skeptic · 12-26-2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration.......

What do you mean by "restoration"? God promised Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of ancient Canaan? Today, Jews do not occupy ALL of the ancient land of Canaan, and there is not any credible evidence that they ever did.

Anyone who has enough military power, or who is supported by parties who have enough military power, can occupy land. If the Jews had been able to partition Palestine in 1948 on their own, your arguments would be more credible, but such was not the case.

Might does not necessarily make right. The largest colonial empire in history by far under a single religion was conquered by Christian nations by means of persecution, murder, and theft of property. The victors often killed each other over land disputes. The fact that Palestine was partioned does not necessarily mean that the partition was fair.

I find the size and the duration of the Roman Empire to be much more impressive than the land that Jews have controlled in the past, and now control.

Your argument that God's land promise to Abraham and his descendants was conditional upon good behavior is ridiculous. That would mean that God would have allowed babies to be killed for what some adults did, and would have allowed obedient adults to be enslaved or killed for what disobedient adults did.

Now are you going to tell us that if all of the Jews had been obedient, none of them would have ever gotten sick or died, and none of them would have ever been killed by one of God's supernatural disasters?

Of course, there is not any credible evidence that God made a land promise to Abraham and his descendants in the first place.

sugarhitman · 12-26-2007, 10:48 AM

In other words you all do not have any Historical documentation or evidence that Nebu sieged Island Tyre. And the fact that the geneologies are completely different (which proves that it is not a mistake or contradiction) shows it for what it is....two geneologies. and Johnny I have responded to your questions (except one, which will come) Why does God kill people and innocent animals (innocent animals??? uh ohhh peta's in the house) with hurricanes? The wrath of God is against an evil world and sometimes the innocent get caught up in it both the good and bad will die in this world ...but it is not the innocent you should be worried about...you should worry about those after God has finished killing the body...destroys their soul in hell....for this is not the end of the innocent but the guilty.

Nero's Boot · 12-26-2007, 10:57 AM

Sugarhitman:

How can pure good create anything other than yet more pure good? If BibleGod cannot do evil deeds, sin, become spiritually lost, etc, the he himself has no free will: He's a slave to his own nature, and those're chains he'll never escape. Xtians go on and on about the idea that evil exists because God values free will, and evil is unfortunately an option wherever free will reigns.

So, my querry:

Since BibleGod has no free will, and therefore cannot do evil, how could he possibly give us that ability? And if a limited-will god is pure happiness without free choice, why didn't he just make us the same way? Couldn't he've just given us happy natures and never let us even know an alternative exists? Is it that he wants us to suffer?

--since God himself has no free will, why in the Hell did he give it to us? NB

sugarhitman · 12-26-2007, 11:05 AM

the jews fought for that land ,right after being sent through the Holocaust, the Russian and European pogroms, fleeing to that land to face a well equipped vast Arab armies. The Arabs were confident due to their numbers and weapons and their European supporters like Germany who trained and fought with them.they were going to push the jews into the sea (so they thought). Not only did they lose that war but all the rest... and each time Israel gained more and more land. God's will is for Israel to have that land because the predictions of Jesus coming cannot happen without Israel having that land for this is the place He will return to. Who helped the Jews fight those wars? Jews. A partition may have been made with the help of others (The Jews also fought the brits because they did not like the terms of that partition they also did not heed the demands of the United Nations...so much for being helped) But it was Jewish blood being spilled....for freedom and for their ancient homeland.

Nero's Boot · 12-26-2007, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

the jews fought for that land ,right after being sent through the Holocaust, the Russian and European pogroms, fleeing to that land to face a well equipped vast Arab armies. The Arabs were confident due to their numbers and weapons and their European supporters like Germany who trained and fought with them.they were going to push the jews into the sea (so they thought). Not only did they lose that war but all the rest... and each time Israel gained more and more land. God's will is for Israel to have that land because the predictions of Jesus coming cannot happen without Israel having that land for this is the place He will return to. Who helped the Jews fight those wars? Jews. A partition may have been made with the help of others (The Jews also fought the brits because they did not like the terms of that partition they also did not heed the demands of the United Nations...so much for being helped) But it was Jewish blood being spilled....for freedom and for their ancient homeland.

So:

What you're saying is, BibleGod is such an megalomaniacal egomaniac that he set in motion the suffering, tribulation and exile of an entire group devoted solely to him, just so he could make a grand entrance? Oh, and then abandon those self-same ignorant marks once "true Jews" (i.e., Christians) have shown up?

Do you not see how evil that is??? BibleGod basically tormented the Jews for millennia, giving them all sorts of lies about his covenant with them, crushed any show of free will they ever meekly dared to make, and then leaves them for the "hot new woman" of Christianity?

--that there perfectly describes a spousal abuser NB

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12-26-2007, 10:20 AM	#31
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	to makerowner but you did say Nebu sieged the island. I want to know what does history say about that (absolutly nothing). How did he siege island Tyre for 13 years with no success ( but interestingly enough Tyre decides to pay tribute to Babylon after he failed in his campaign)? Come on you must have something seeing you are so confident in your arguments.

12-26-2007, 10:21 AM	#32
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	makerowner you are not disproving only rejecting...what a poor debater you are indeed.

12-26-2007, 10:48 AM	#37
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	In other words you all do not have any Historical documentation or evidence that Nebu sieged Island Tyre. And the fact that the geneologies are completely different (which proves that it is not a mistake or contradiction) shows it for what it is....two geneologies. and Johnny I have responded to your questions (except one, which will come) Why does God kill people and innocent animals (innocent animals??? uh ohhh peta's in the house) with hurricanes? The wrath of God is against an evil world and sometimes the innocent get caught up in it both the good and bad will die in this world ...but it is not the innocent you should be worried about...you should worry about those after God has finished killing the body...destroys their soul in hell....for this is not the end of the innocent but the guilty.

12-26-2007, 10:57 AM	#38
Nero's Boot Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: West Virginia Posts: 1,234	Sugarhitman: How can pure good create anything other than yet more pure good? If BibleGod cannot do evil deeds, sin, become spiritually lost, etc, the he himself has no free will: He's a slave to his own nature, and those're chains he'll never escape. Xtians go on and on about the idea that evil exists because God values free will, and evil is unfortunately an option wherever free will reigns. So, my querry: Since BibleGod has no free will, and therefore cannot do evil, how could he possibly give us that ability? And if a limited-will god is pure happiness without free choice, why didn't he just make us the same way? Couldn't he've just given us happy natures and never let us even know an alternative exists? Is it that he wants us to suffer? --since God himself has no free will, why in the Hell did he give it to us? NB

12-26-2007, 11:05 AM	#39
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	the jews fought for that land ,right after being sent through the Holocaust, the Russian and European pogroms, fleeing to that land to face a well equipped vast Arab armies. The Arabs were confident due to their numbers and weapons and their European supporters like Germany who trained and fought with them.they were going to push the jews into the sea (so they thought). Not only did they lose that war but all the rest... and each time Israel gained more and more land. God's will is for Israel to have that land because the predictions of Jesus coming cannot happen without Israel having that land for this is the place He will return to. Who helped the Jews fight those wars? Jews. A partition may have been made with the help of others (The Jews also fought the brits because they did not like the terms of that partition they also did not heed the demands of the United Nations...so much for being helped) But it was Jewish blood being spilled....for freedom and for their ancient homeland.

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