Freethought & Rationalism Archive

09-25-2007, 09:14 PM

Hex, Roger's point doesn't seen unreasonable to the complete layperson. Can you give us some friendly pointers on what distinguishes religious ritual objects from other parts of culture?

I'm thinking, for instance, of that funny article on purity rituals among the Nacerima... The mere presence of repeated objects doesn't prove they are religious. If every household with children has a Shrek figurine, does that mean they are images of fertility gods? Is an Oscar a fetish worship symbol among actors? How do you tell? They may be functional, or merely traditional. We humans like art and decorations and toys, and we have fashions in these things.

Please note that I am not impugning your credentials as an archaeologist, I am merely curious and ignorant.

Johnny Skeptic · 09-25-2007, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

But, thinking critically and returning to the original issue, I was wondering how we dig up evidence of something in the minds of long dead people; monotheism or polytheism. Obviously if we can dig up temples with multiple deities labelled as such we can rationally infer polytheism! But if we can't, can we infer monotheism from the absence of evidence? I don't see it.

If a moral God exists, we would not have to dig up anything. The truth would be easy to find, even for a sixth grader. A sixth grader has no trouble believing that President Bush exists. If a moral God exists, there is no reason why a sixth grader should have any trouble believing the he exists.

glorybug · 09-25-2007, 11:29 PM

Please forgive me once again, if I jump in midstream. I'm a lurker who had read most all of the posts on this site, but had not signed up, so I feel the best way to jump in is to address the OT.

Early monotheism could be debatable, I suppose.
But it seems silly to.

One of the 10 commandments, no matter how you want to look at it, and interpret it, specifically says not to put any 'OTHER' 'gods' before Him.

Meaning there were other gods. And that 'he'd' be ticked if you put them first, before him.

All my reading, as a longtime ex BAC coming from a missionary BAC family specifically stressed this, whithout addressing the 'other' part.

OTHER gods.

If he'd wanted to be the only one, he would not have said 'other', he would have said....

Thou shalt have no other gods at all.

You can argue that the points about not making graven images plays into this, but if you look at it literally, that commandment actually says....

that you can have 'other' gods, you just can't put them first, nor can you make visual representations of them.

Just for info, I came from a very strict BAC home, and was forced to read the bible front to back many times during my childhood. While I am not a scholar, my missionary father (who was also a professor and is still an architect), and my mother (who has multiple degrees in chemistry and botany) are very educated about BAC. They have done many pilgrimages to the middle east. My father also reads greek, arabic, portuguese, (whatever brazilian is) and old whatever Judaism is. He is an excellent and interesting lecturer. He has read many of the original texts.

I'm new here, and don't understand everything... he may be (in spite if his fervent fundamentalism) and apologist, as he does (in spite of his incredible knowledge) seem to make excuses for what I consider to be serious flaws within his religion.

Again, I dont know what he'd be called... much less what I'd be called.

He admits Easter is not on the correct date, or Christmas, and admits that xians stole Easter, Christmas, and Halloween, as well as many other significant dates from early religions... with the excuse that ursurping the heathen holidays was good for xians.

c

MrFungus420 · 09-25-2007, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

It is the height of closed-mindedness to hold the position that there was no Global Flood. Few (if any) events of antiquity have more evidential support -- both literary and physical -- than this event.

Really?

Few if any events of antiquity have more than no evidential support?

MrFungus420 · 09-25-2007, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Hmm. There must be some mistake. Merely hovering my mouse over Dave's link reveals that it's an AiG article.

Got any scholarly sources for this "scholarly work", Dave?

It's not even an article.

It is trying to sell a book...

Toto · 09-26-2007, 02:27 AM

Welcome, glorybug. Is BAC Born Again Christian?

Roger Pearse · 09-26-2007, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Is that the case with regard to the paper Hex quoted?

And, if by "documented" you mean some ancient writing explaining an item, doesn't that actually prove Roger's point? You need the people in question to explain an object somehow before you can say what it meant to them or what purpose it served. Otherwise you are just speculating.

Yes, this is exactly what I was wondering myself. I don't have a dogmatic view on this, I should add; but the question seems well worth answering.

Quote:

To simply refuse to speculate on the possibilities based on analogous cases is not a path to knowledge; it is to sit rotting in ignorance.

I don't think Roger is suggesting that speculation be avoided so much as it be recognized and acknowledged as such when it is the basis for a claim.

Exactly. Where I get concerned is when speculation is presented as fact without such qualifications. How does that help anyone?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Pappy Jack · 09-26-2007, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

....Note that Egypt DID NOT exist prior to the Flood. The conventional chronology is WRONG as showed by David Rohl. ....

Everything that Eric said about the content of this post, Dave. For my part, every time you have repeated this nonsense, I have asked you:

(a) What Rohl has to say about the archaeological evidence for Predynastic Egypt that predates his revised chronology for the founding of Dynastic Egypt?

(b) How you would explain, even if Rohl's revised chronology is entirely correct and he has nothing to say about Predynastic Egypt, the said evidence for the existence of Predynastic Egypt?

And every time I have asked you this, answer has there come none.....

Lucretius · 09-26-2007, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Welcome, glorybug. Is BAC Born Again Christian?

I have heard some Born Again Christians here in the U.K. refer to themselves as BACs

Pappy Jack · 09-26-2007, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Here's Petrie and Langdon on record stating that monotheism was the earliest form of religion in Egypt ... Petrie and Langdon: Early Egyptians were monotheists

Here's evidence from Frankfort for original monotheism in Sumer ... ... polytheism developed after monotheism, not the other way around as is often imagined.

....And of course the "Great Father" of all the nations is Noah who was a monotheist. But as time went on and the population grew, various groups rejected their original monotheism and descended into degrading polytheistic cults. The birth of the Hebrew nation was a definite action by God to bring people BACK to monotheism, namely a worship of the One True Creator God......

Dave, you may find this observation from Robert Gnuse of Loyala University reviewing Mark S. Smith's The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts (or via: amazon.co.uk) (OUP 2001, ISBN 019513480X) interesting:

Quote:

Biblical scholars now recognize that in the pre-exilic era Asherah worship, infant sacrifice, solar veneration, and other religious practices attacked by biblical authors represented normal Israelite worship, while monotheism was a late development in the Babylonian Exile and subsequent years.

Full review available here.

You may also find this online article by David Steinberg, Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel, which can be found here, instructive and interesting.

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09-25-2007, 09:14 PM	#51
cajela Guest Posts: n/a	Hex, Roger's point doesn't seen unreasonable to the complete layperson. Can you give us some friendly pointers on what distinguishes religious ritual objects from other parts of culture? I'm thinking, for instance, of that funny article on purity rituals among the Nacerima... The mere presence of repeated objects doesn't prove they are religious. If every household with children has a Shrek figurine, does that mean they are images of fertility gods? Is an Oscar a fetish worship symbol among actors? How do you tell? They may be functional, or merely traditional. We humans like art and decorations and toys, and we have fashions in these things. Please note that I am not impugning your credentials as an archaeologist, I am merely curious and ignorant.

09-25-2007, 11:29 PM	#53
glorybug New Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Californ-I-Yay Posts: 4	Please forgive me once again, if I jump in midstream. I'm a lurker who had read most all of the posts on this site, but had not signed up, so I feel the best way to jump in is to address the OT. Early monotheism could be debatable, I suppose. But it seems silly to. One of the 10 commandments, no matter how you want to look at it, and interpret it, specifically says not to put any 'OTHER' 'gods' before Him. Meaning there were other gods. And that 'he'd' be ticked if you put them first, before him. All my reading, as a longtime ex BAC coming from a missionary BAC family specifically stressed this, whithout addressing the 'other' part. OTHER gods. If he'd wanted to be the only one, he would not have said 'other', he would have said.... Thou shalt have no other gods at all. You can argue that the points about not making graven images plays into this, but if you look at it literally, that commandment actually says.... that you can have 'other' gods, you just can't put them first, nor can you make visual representations of them. Just for info, I came from a very strict BAC home, and was forced to read the bible front to back many times during my childhood. While I am not a scholar, my missionary father (who was also a professor and is still an architect), and my mother (who has multiple degrees in chemistry and botany) are very educated about BAC. They have done many pilgrimages to the middle east. My father also reads greek, arabic, portuguese, (whatever brazilian is) and old whatever Judaism is. He is an excellent and interesting lecturer. He has read many of the original texts. I'm new here, and don't understand everything... he may be (in spite if his fervent fundamentalism) and apologist, as he does (in spite of his incredible knowledge) seem to make excuses for what I consider to be serious flaws within his religion. Again, I dont know what he'd be called... much less what I'd be called. He admits Easter is not on the correct date, or Christmas, and admits that xians stole Easter, Christmas, and Halloween, as well as many other significant dates from early religions... with the excuse that ursurping the heathen holidays was good for xians. c

09-26-2007, 02:27 AM	#56
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Welcome, glorybug. Is BAC Born Again Christian?

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