Vivisector

Apologies if all this has been dealt with before, in which case a link to previous discussion would be appreciated. I'm also in the process of moving, and I have no access to my commentaries, GNT, or other books.

A few questions come to mind about this passage.

1. It seems Paul holds the Jews responsible for killing Jesus - is this a fair inference?
2. In verse 15, Paul groups the killing of Jesus with the killing of the prophets and driving him (Paul et al.) out. Since killing the prophets and driving Paul and others out presumably occurred in the earthly, flesh-and-blood realm, is it then reasonable to suppose that Paul considers Jesus to have been put to death in the flesh, in the earthly realm?
3. Is it fair to infer that the remainder of the passage refers to actions of the same Jews that killed Jesus, the prophets, etc.?
4. What is the "wrath" that has come upon "them" at last?

Thanks in advance,

V.

Clouseau

He does, but he holds those Jews spiritually equivalent to Greek-speaking Jews and perhaps Greeks who troubled the saints in Thessalonika. So the act of killing Jesus he holds equivalent to preventing the saving of souls by preaching of the gospel.

Yes.

Also those who had troubled Paul's mission in Thessalonika.

Not their eventual demise, but the condition, theretofore only latent, that they now displayed that would result in their demise. This idea of 'filling up' or realising one's destiny is an OT one that Paul refers to, as Jesus had:

'"So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!"' Mt 23:31-32 NIV

'At last' may be exchanged with 'fully'; either rendition is permissible, both make contextual sense, though 'fully' has semantic and poetic resonance with 'filled up'.

Vivisector

Thanks, Clouseau. I appreciate the thoughtful answers.

Cheers,

V.

LAMII

Clouseau, Your answers perpetuate the anti-Semitism which, if Paul actually existed as a mid-first Century missionary, he probably did not hold.

Another interpretation of 1 Thess. 14-16: At that time the emerging sect of Jesus followers was part of judaism. The referenced passage in 1 Thess. is probably a later interpolation. In fact, many scholars (e.g., Price, Schmithals & Fee) have theorized that 1 Thess. is made up of two epistles, Epistle A and Epistle B, with versus 1-12 from Epistle A and part of either Paul’s original letter, or at least Marcion’s version of Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians.

Epistle B, which probably accounts for vs. 13-20 appears to be a letter by a later generation, appearing long after Paul’s death. As for verse 15, it is hard to imagine a Jew (and Paul tells us he was a Jew) speaking of Jews in this manner–it reeks of typical Hellenistic anti-Semitism. And as for verse 16, this is certainly a reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70CE, and maybe even to the defeat of the Bar-Kochba rebellion in 136CE.

Lloyd

Clouseau

Thank you, V, and thanks for the interesting question.

Clouseau

I take anti-semitism to be opposition to those of ethnic Jewish extraction per se. I cannot see any conceivable reference to that concept in my answers. Paul's antipathy was towards those who hindered the gospel by which men of any race, Jew, Greek, barbarian, even Scythian may be saved and become heirs of God himself.

LAMII

My apologies. Anti-Semitism is a modern term which I should not have applied to your comments. You expressed something different, and my characterization of your comments was incorrect.

Lloyd

Clouseau

No probs.

judge

THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM.

Toto

This has come up before, but not recently. The standard view among most non-inerrantist scholars is that this is an interpolation. The reference to "the Jews" as being hopelessly damned is uncharacteristic of the rest of the Pauline letters.

There is an old thread here in which Vinnie tried to argue against the idea that this passage is an interpolation. You can search the archives for "thessalonians interpolation" to find more threads.

This is one of the reasons for viewing this passage as an interpolation. Paul has otherwise said that the "rulers of this age" killed Jesus.

The writer of this passage probably thought that Jesus has been put to death in an earthly realm. But that writer probably did not write the rest of the epistles attributed to Paul.

Another reason to see this as an interpolation.

This is the strongest reason to label this passage an interpolation. The wrath that has come upon them most likely refers to the destruction of the Temple in 70, or possibly the total defeat in the Bar Kockba rebellion.

The idea that the Jews were damned and the Temple destroyed because the killed their prophets, up to and including Jesus, is generally held to be characteristic of second century Christianity, after Christians and Jews became separate movements. It does not make a lot of sense for a first century missionary like Paul to think in those terms.

Note that this is the only passage in the "authentic" Pauline letters that refers to Jesus' crucifixion on earth at the hands of indisputably earthly beings.