JDB-44

Hello,

I have a couple of questions about Bible authorship. From what I've heard, supposedly Moses wrote the Old Testament. Does it actually say that in the Bible? That he wrote the whole O.T.?

Also, what details, if any, were offered, about this writing process...are many references made to God telling Moses to write such-and-such? Or does it just say in one place, "Oh, yeah...Moses wrote this from a face-to-face discussion with God."

Finally, I'm not sure if it's beating a dead horse, but I remember someboday posting on II, "how can his death is documented in the O.T. if he wrote the whole thing himself?" Has that point been discussed to a conclusion?

Thanks,
Jared

Magus55

Moses is only alleged to have written the Torah ( Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). Someone else finished Deuteronomy when Moses died.

There are numerous mentions in the Torah that show Moses was commanded by God to write it. There are also many verses throughout the Bible pointing to Moses being the author of the first 5 books.

RUmike

Logic dictates that this account was written after the city called Dan came into existence. However...

In Judges we find that the city was originally named Laish, and changed to Dan sometime after the year 1120 B.C. (because this incident took place after Samson's death, which was in the year 1120). However, Moses died in 1431 B.C.! Thus the city of Dan was not in existence until 331 years after Moses' death, and subsequently Moses could not possibly be the author. Some may say that it doesn't matter who authored it, so long as it's true. But this also shows that even if Moses was a real person and died in 1431, the Torah was still not written for hundreds of years after these alleged event ocurred, regardless of who authored it. I can't see any possible refutation for this. Kudos to Thomas Paine for keenly observing this in the Age of Reason.

Godless Wonder

A great deal of stuff about this can be found here:
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart15.html#ref1511
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart15.html#ref1517

Dean Anderson

This argument doesn't work.

As an example, there have been letters found at forts along Hadrian's wall that were written by the Roman officers and their wives.

One of these letters is an invite to a birthday party in York.

Now I know that the city of York wasn't given that name until after the Viking invasion, a thousand years (-ish) after the letter was written. At the time the letter was written, the city was called Ebacaurum (spelling?)

This doesn't mean that the letter wasn't written until 1100AD - it just means that when the letter was copied and translated, the translator saw the name 'Ebacaurum' and wrote 'York' because that is the name that his/her audience would understand.

Other evidence notwithstanding, it is perfectly possible that the Genesis story was written before 1381BC - and that a copyist updated the name of the town so that his audience would recognise where it was. There's probably a name for this common type of copyist alteration, but I don't know it.

Jayhawker Soule

Well said. Unfortunately, other evidence notwithstanding, it is perfectly possible that the Wizard of Oz was written before 1381BC - and that a copyist/plagiarist updated it as required. Conversely, other evidence notwithstanding, it is perfectly possible that neither the Torah nor the Wizard of Oz were authored by 'Moses'. Logical possibility is a rather trivial threshhold.

At issue is not what is perfectly possible but, rather, what is most reasonable, and that evaluation cannot be made "other evidence notwithstanding".

gregor

All will be explained by reading "Who Wrote the Bible" by Friedman (I'm surprised I beat Dr. X to this thread).

Three different authors wrote differing versions of Genesis through Numbers. The versions were writte in roughly 730 BC (700 years after "Moses'" death. Deuteronomy through 2 Kings was written by Jeremiah in 580 BC. A different author added to Deuteronomy.

Finally a compiler fitted them all together after the exile.

Friedman's book is really a wonderful read.

Dean Anderson

I agree.

I was not arguing that the stuff was written in 1381BC. I do not think this is a reasonable estimate.

I was just pointing out that RUmike's claim that it logically could not have been was flawed.

I am interested to see what Friedman says about the subject - I have his book on order from Amazon...




By the way, does anyone know if the updating of place-names etc. has a proper name in textual criticism circles as a type of redaction?

gregor

I don't recall Friedman discussing much archeological evidence. His is a deconstruction of the text, itself, coupled with some external evidence.

DrJim

Magus55 says: One should make pretty clear distinctions between the actions words and motives of the characters in a book those of the narrator and the author. They are not the same. An author (or authors/redactors) have constructed a book in which a narrator who tells how Moses wrote something. Now, this Moses and God on encounters in the book are characters: they may be repesentations of real people/dieties, but their representations have no reality outside of the narrated world.

The Torah says Moses wrote certain documents. Those documents too exist only as items within the narrative world. The narrator may explain or "quote" their contents, or a character may be descibed as dictating or reciting that text. Yet, that book cannot be the same as the physical book one is holding in one's hand. Anything Moses is described as writing in Torah is only one part of the narrated dialogue between the characters in the book.

There is no reason to externalize the commandments to write as revealing the "facts" of the composition of that literary, fictive world in which Moses and God interact.