Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darwin's Beagle · 09-05-2003, 05:44 PM

Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, "Let Us make man in our own image ..."

Genesis 3:22 - Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us ... "

Genesis 11:7 - [God speaking] "Come, let Us go down and confuse their language ..."

I believe these are the only places in the bible in which God uses the word, "Us". Christians generally interpret these as references to the Trinity; father, son, and holy ghost.

How do the Jews, who don't give credence to the trinity interpret God's references to "Us"? I suspect they may think God is talking to some lower level archangels, but I don't know that for sure.

My own guess is that the references to "Us" are holdovers from an earlier polytheistic religion that later evolved into Judaism.

Regards,

Darwin's Beagle

DrJim · 09-05-2003, 06:40 PM

There have been a few explanations: I believe the medieval commentator Ibn Ezra thought the plural was one denoting divine majesty, but I'm not too certain it was him.

Your suspicion about angels, however, well in line with Jewish understanding too.

There is a Midrash about the plurals in the creation that is interesting. A midrash is form of interpretation which explains difficult questions in the Bible. It often involves retelling a story full of imbellishments and so forth. Some can be rather fanciful.
There are large collections of Midrash.

In Midrash Genesis Rabbah 8:5, the creation of humanity is discussed. The storyteller is not only trying to solve the problem of the plurals, but to make a number of moral and spiritual points as well, and to show how all of scripture is intimately linked.

I found an online version of it, almost to the bottom.

Hillel site

I think it might be too long to quote for copyright reasons, but here is a synopsis if the link doesn't work.

God wants to create humanity, but some of the angels disagree with the decision. The angels in the story are named after some words in Ps. 85. The angel "lovingkindness" said create humanity, but "truth" said humanity will become liars; "Righteousness" says create, because humanity will do a lot of good stuff. "Peace" says humanity will be full of strife, so don't create humanity.
So God "took Truth and cast it toward the earth". The Midrash then refers to Daniel 8:12, which says, (in a completely different context, but that doesn't matter) "and truth will be cast to the earth". Truth, however, is restored when the angels complain and quote Psalm 85 again, "Truth will arise from the earth" (v. 12).

I think that should solve all the logical conundrums...

Magus55 · 09-05-2003, 07:20 PM

I think Us is also used in Isaiah in regard to God. I don't think the Angel argument works since humans weren't created in the image of angels.

Jayhawker Soule · 09-05-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

This four-tiered model of the divine family and council apparently went through a number of changes in early Israel. In the earliest stage, it would appear that Yahweh was one of these seventy children, each of whom was the patron deity of the seventy nations. This idea appears behind the Dead Sea Scrolls reading and the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32:8-9. In this passage, El is the head of the divine family, and each member of the divine family receives a nation of hi s own: Israel is the portion of Yahweh. The Masoretic Text, evidently uncomfortable with the polytheism expressed in the phrase "according to the number of the divine sons," altered the reading to "according to the number of the children of Israel" (also thought to be seventy). Psalm 82 also presents the god El presiding in a divine assembly at which Yahweh stands up and makes his accusation against the other gods. Here the text shows the older religious worldview which the passage is denouncing.

- see The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic
Background and the Ugaritic Texts

[ see, also, Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God. ]

Parenthetically, Amazon.com packages this book with the 2nd edition of Smith's The Early History of God - Yahweh and the Other Dieties in Ancient Israel which is, in my opinion, well worth owning.

Darwin's Beagle · 09-06-2003, 07:35 PM

Thanks for the links, I'm reading them right now.

Regards,

Darwin's Beagle

Doctor X · 09-07-2003, 01:25 PM

Indeed.

One of the names translated as "god" is Elohim which is plural "gods."

Hence, "sons of the gods."

The OT preserves this polytheistic tradition. Note well that in neither the Patriarch or Exodus stories does the locative Israelite deity ever try to convert the Egyptians--given his miracles in Exodus, one would think this would come up! Similarly the stock device of whenever the coffee goes cold the Israelites "murmor" about finding another god! "Let's see, a bunch of plagues . . . drowning the Egyptian army . . . I still say he is a loser!"

There is also the wonderful 2 Kgs 3:26-27 where King Mesha sacrifices his first-son to his god and the Israelites get squished!

Consequent Atheist:

Thanks for the recommendations!

--J.D.

Heathen Dawn · 09-07-2003, 03:12 PM

Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yishaqi), greatest Jewish commentator of Jewish scriptures in all history, says that the plural is in deference to the angels. God includes the angels in His address as a show of His humility.

Doctor X · 09-07-2003, 03:24 PM

Rashi engages in a later rationalization of a problem--polytheism. It became a tradition to deny polytheism in the history of the Jewish religion.

--J.D.

09-05-2003, 05:44 PM	#1
Darwin's Beagle Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 62	When God say "Us" what do Jews think it means? Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, "Let Us make man in our own image ..." Genesis 3:22 - Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us ... " Genesis 11:7 - [God speaking] "Come, let Us go down and confuse their language ..." I believe these are the only places in the bible in which God uses the word, "Us". Christians generally interpret these as references to the Trinity; father, son, and holy ghost. How do the Jews, who don't give credence to the trinity interpret God's references to "Us"? I suspect they may think God is talking to some lower level archangels, but I don't know that for sure. My own guess is that the references to "Us" are holdovers from an earlier polytheistic religion that later evolved into Judaism. Regards, Darwin's Beagle

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09-05-2003, 06:40 PM	#2
DrJim Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lethbridge AB Canada Posts: 445	There have been a few explanations: I believe the medieval commentator Ibn Ezra thought the plural was one denoting divine majesty, but I'm not too certain it was him. Your suspicion about angels, however, well in line with Jewish understanding too. There is a Midrash about the plurals in the creation that is interesting. A midrash is form of interpretation which explains difficult questions in the Bible. It often involves retelling a story full of imbellishments and so forth. Some can be rather fanciful. There are large collections of Midrash. In Midrash Genesis Rabbah 8:5, the creation of humanity is discussed. The storyteller is not only trying to solve the problem of the plurals, but to make a number of moral and spiritual points as well, and to show how all of scripture is intimately linked. I found an online version of it, almost to the bottom. Hillel site I think it might be too long to quote for copyright reasons, but here is a synopsis if the link doesn't work. God wants to create humanity, but some of the angels disagree with the decision. The angels in the story are named after some words in Ps. 85. The angel "lovingkindness" said create humanity, but "truth" said humanity will become liars; "Righteousness" says create, because humanity will do a lot of good stuff. "Peace" says humanity will be full of strife, so don't create humanity. So God "took Truth and cast it toward the earth". The Midrash then refers to Daniel 8:12, which says, (in a completely different context, but that doesn't matter) "and truth will be cast to the earth". Truth, however, is restored when the angels complain and quote Psalm 85 again, "Truth will arise from the earth" (v. 12). I think that should solve all the logical conundrums...

09-05-2003, 07:20 PM	#3
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	I think Us is also used in Isaiah in regard to God. I don't think the Angel argument works since humans weren't created in the image of angels.

09-06-2003, 07:35 PM	#5
Darwin's Beagle Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 62	Thanks for the links, I'm reading them right now. Regards, Darwin's Beagle

09-07-2003, 01:25 PM	#6
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Indeed. One of the names translated as "god" is Elohim which is plural "gods." Hence, "sons of the gods." The OT preserves this polytheistic tradition. Note well that in neither the Patriarch or Exodus stories does the locative Israelite deity ever try to convert the Egyptians--given his miracles in Exodus, one would think this would come up! Similarly the stock device of whenever the coffee goes cold the Israelites "murmor" about finding another god! "Let's see, a bunch of plagues . . . drowning the Egyptian army . . . I still say he is a loser!" There is also the wonderful 2 Kgs 3:26-27 where King Mesha sacrifices his first-son to his god and the Israelites get squished! Consequent Atheist: Thanks for the recommendations! --J.D.

09-07-2003, 03:12 PM	#7
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yishaqi), greatest Jewish commentator of Jewish scriptures in all history, says that the plural is in deference to the angels. God includes the angels in His address as a show of His humility.

09-07-2003, 03:24 PM	#8
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Rashi engages in a later rationalization of a problem--polytheism. It became a tradition to deny polytheism in the history of the Jewish religion. --J.D.

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