Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 08-21-2008, 01:28 PM

Went to his cathedral today, which says it goes back 1700 years.

Does that not make it the earliest xian structure?

Quote:

In 1968, English historian John Morris suggested that St Alban's martyrdom took place during the persecutions under Emperor Septimus Severus in 209.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Alban

Toto · 08-21-2008, 02:00 PM

St_Albans_Cathedral says that the Cathedral dates to Norman times.

But I thought you Brits claimed that Joseph of Arimathea visited the British Isles, if not Jesus Himself?

Amaleq13 · 08-21-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But I thought you Brits claimed that Joseph of Arimathea visited the British Isles, if not Jesus Himself?

IIRC, he is supposed to have had some sort of mining interest there. Tin?

Clivedurdle · 08-21-2008, 02:39 PM

And did those feet - was about Jesus as a teenager coming here with his Uncle (tin mining is possibly correct) - but I was hoping for a bit more substance about St Alban - there are moves for him to replace St George.

The Cathedral is claiming a 1700 year history.

Toto · 08-21-2008, 04:36 PM

St Alban's Cathedral website gives no indication that the current building is 1700 years old:

Quote:

The cathedral is built on what is believed to be the site of the martyrdom of St Alban. The hill upon which it stands overlooks the valley of the river Ver, beyond which lie the buried ruins of the Roman city of Verulamium.

The shrine of St Alban is documented from early times, and it is recorded that St Germanus of Auxerre visited the site in 429. Early in the 8th century, Bede wrote of the 'beautiful Church worthy of all Alban's martyrdom where miracles of healing took place.' The monastic structure of this church was re-ordered by King Offa of Mercia in 793 and a new order and discipline introduced by St Oswald in the 960s. The availability of huge amounts of building material from the ruins of nearby Roman Verulamium was put to good use in the Norman era, from which time many of the features of the building date.

There is only a 1700 year history if the church was symbolically established when Alban was decapitated. But there is no 1700 year old building.

From wiki:

Quote:

Alban was taken before the magistrate, where he avowed his new Christian faith and was condemned for it. He was beheaded, according to legend, on the spot where the cathedral named for him now stands. The site is on a steep hill, and legend has it that his head rolled down the hill after being cut off, and that a well sprang up at the point where it stopped.

A well certainly exists today and the road up to the Cathedral is named Holywell Hill. However the current well structure is no older than the late nineteenth century, and it is thought that the name of the street derives from the "Halywell" river and "Halywell Bridge", not from the well. [1]

The date of Alban's execution is a matter of some debate, and is generally given as "circa 250" - scholars generally suggest dates of 209, 254 or 304.

davidbach · 08-25-2008, 08:14 AM

Forgive me a little anecdote.

We visited St. Albans Cathedral many years ago. My wife admired the structure as we approached, but commented that the brickwork of the central tower looked too modern. When we consulted the guidebook inside, we were told that the bricks came from the Roman Verulamium. She has not yet (after 20-odd years) lived that comment down!

David.

gstafleu · 08-25-2008, 08:52 AM

According to Wikipedia, "Alban is listed in the Church of England calendar for 22 June," which is, oh dear, the summer solstice (or close enough not to matter). Furthermore, he "was executed by decapitation on a hill". Hmm... died on a hill, sounds familiar to anyone (Jesus, Hero stories according to Raglan). So, before concluding too much about a "historical Alban" it might be a good idea to examine some of the Celtic deities of the times and look for correspondences.

Gerard Stafleu

Clivedurdle · 08-25-2008, 09:03 AM

Probably not related but does note various celtic goddesses.

http://www.thewhitegoddess.co.uk/goddess/andraste.html

Is St Alban another legendary figure like Robin Hood and William Tell?

Clivedurdle · 08-25-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidbach

Forgive me a little anecdote.

We visited St. Albans Cathedral many years ago. My wife admired the structure as we approached, but commented that the brickwork of the central tower looked too modern. When we consulted the guidebook inside, we were told that the bricks came from the Roman Verulamium. She has not yet (after 20-odd years) lived that comment down!

David.

Or noting Roman bricks are a more modern technology than Norman stone?

Huon · 08-26-2008, 01:24 AM

From Catholic Encyclopedia :

Quote:

On the way to the place of execution Alban arrested the waters of a river so that they crossed dry-shod, and he further caused a fountain of water to flow on the summit of the hill on which he was beheaded.

The Celts worshipped the sources. The possible execution of Alban was an occasion of christianizing (is it the correct word ?) the source.

Secondly, a cathedral is usually very old, but the monument that we can see at the beginning of the XXIst century is certainly much more recent than the original building.

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08-21-2008, 02:00 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	St_Albans_Cathedral says that the Cathedral dates to Norman times. But I thought you Brits claimed that Joseph of Arimathea visited the British Isles, if not Jesus Himself?

08-21-2008, 02:39 PM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And did those feet - was about Jesus as a teenager coming here with his Uncle (tin mining is possibly correct) - but I was hoping for a bit more substance about St Alban - there are moves for him to replace St George. The Cathedral is claiming a 1700 year history.

08-25-2008, 08:14 AM	#6
davidbach Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Carolina Posts: 462	Forgive me a little anecdote. We visited St. Albans Cathedral many years ago. My wife admired the structure as we approached, but commented that the brickwork of the central tower looked too modern. When we consulted the guidebook inside, we were told that the bricks came from the Roman Verulamium. She has not yet (after 20-odd years) lived that comment down! David.

08-25-2008, 08:52 AM	#7
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	According to Wikipedia, "Alban is listed in the Church of England calendar for 22 June," which is, oh dear, the summer solstice (or close enough not to matter). Furthermore, he "was executed by decapitation on a hill". Hmm... died on a hill, sounds familiar to anyone (Jesus, Hero stories according to Raglan). So, before concluding too much about a "historical Alban" it might be a good idea to examine some of the Celtic deities of the times and look for correspondences. Gerard Stafleu

08-25-2008, 09:03 AM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Probably not related but does note various celtic goddesses. http://www.thewhitegoddess.co.uk/goddess/andraste.html Is St Alban another legendary figure like Robin Hood and William Tell?

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