pretheism

I am looking for web sites that show the strong influence of Ancient Paganism in Christianity, beliefs, holidays.
In specific, sites that refer to Catholicism and its "covert paganism."
Nothing too insulting, though. I don't want to freak some of my relatives.

countjulian

I've done a bit of work on this myself. I've put together a list, previously discussed on this board, of pagan mythological links between the life of Jesus and other gods, demi-gods, and divine heroes:

The Greek god Perseus, born of the virgin Danae and Zeus in a shower of gold:

Perseus, the son of Jove [Zeus] and her whom, in her prison, Juppiter’s [Zeus’] golden shower made fertile. — Metamorphoses 4.697

The Greek god Heracles (known to you under his Roman name, Hercules), who died in agony, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven:

Heracles, whom she had by Zeus…the poison of the hydra began to corrode his skin…and [he] tore off the tunic, which clung to his body, so that his flesh was torn away with it. In such a sad plight he was carried on shipboard to Trachis… [Heracles] proceeded to Mount Oeta, in the Trachinian territory, and there constructed a pyre, mounted it, and gave orders to kindle it. When no one would do so, Poeas, passing by to look for his flocks, set a light to it. On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven. Thereafter he obtained immortality-- Apollodorus, 'The Library,' 11; IV, 8-VII, 7

The Greek god Asclepius, who made the blind see, raised men from the dead, died, and was resurrected:

"Asclepius was the son of Apollo [a god] and Coronis [a mortal woman]...he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and... he brought back to life many who had died."—Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 4.7.1.1- 2

When Hippolytus was killed,...Asclepius raised him from the dead."—Pausanias, Corinth, Description of Greece, 1.27.5

Hermon of Thasus. His blindness was cured by Asclepius.— Inscriptiones Graecae, 4.1.121 - 122, Stele 2.22

"The youth [Asklepios] blasted by ancestral bolts [of Zeus] soars from earth…Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [and grants Asklepios life]-- Ovid, Fasti 6.735

…Hercules [Herakles], of Castor and Pollux [the Dioskouroi], of Aesculapius [Asklepios] ... And these benefactors were duly deemed divine, as being both supremely good and immortal, because their souls survived and enjoyed eternal life.—Cicero, Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2.24


The salvation god Mithra, who spilled eternal blood to save humanity, and left his followers with a sacred Eucharist:

You [Mithra] have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood.—Inscription, Santa Prisca Mithraeum in Rome

This rite [communion] the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For they set forth bread and a cup of water with certain incantations in their ceremonies of initiation—Justin Martyr, First Apology 68

The Egyptian god Osiris, who died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where he will judge the living and the dead, forever and ever:

[the first examination]
They [the Gods of the Underworld] say, "Come forward.
They say, "Who are you,"
They say, "What is your name?"
"I am the he who is equipped under the flowers, the-dweller-in-the-moringa Osiris is my name."—Egyptian book of the Dead

the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his resurrection and regenesis—Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 364

Isis, who resurrected Osiris and with him guarantees salvation to all who except Osiris as savior:

The keys of hell and the guarantee of salvation were in the hands of the goddess, and the initiation ceremony itself a kind of voluntary death and salvation through divine grace.—
Apuleius, Metamorphosis, Book 11, 21

And [the followers of Isis & Osiris said], "Be of good cheer, O initiates, for the god is saved, and we shall have salvation"— Firmicus Maternus, The Error of Pagan Religions, 22.1

The Greek god Dionysus, who turned water to wine, did miracles, died, and was resurrected:

One woman [bacchant]
struck her thyrsus against a rock and a fountain
of cool water came bubbling up. Another drove
her fennel in the ground, and where it struck the earth,
at the touch of god [Dionysus], a spring of wine poured out….— Euripides, The Bacchae, 707- 712

the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titanes cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife. There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life-- Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.155

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and ...having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven--Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54

I actually handed this out in flyer form today, BTW. I warn you, though, there is all kind of non-sense out there, crap like "Mithra was Crucified" or "Tammuz was born of a virgin" that are utter non-sense. This stems largely from a scholar who goes by the name of Archay S. It really gives those of us who do real research on Christianity's pagan origins a bad name. A couple of rules of thumb

No pagan god, ever, was crucified, end of story

The only real virgin births I have been able to find are Romulus & Remus and Perseus; if you hear of any others, demand the primary text or faggetabouit

Generally be wary of people who make fabulous claims but don't provide primary sources. If it isn't in the ancient authors, don't believe it.

Good luck, and keep it scholarly.

pretheism

Thanks.

I have been looking for web sites like crazy.

On Mary, Jesus, the trinity, holiday.
Unfortunately, I have not found one that has addressed a compendium of criticisms. Some are written by Protestants and Fundies, not a good choice at all.
Dealing with Catholics I have the feeling they can be so "close-minded."
I have decided to mainly "attack" holidays since that is what my relatives pay attention to.

GakuseiDon

Nitpick: Where does it say that Dionysus turned water into wine? It doesn't seem to be saying that the spring of wine was originally water.

Toto

There are two separate issues here. One is the influence of paganism in the origins of Christianity, which is the basis of countjulian's post.

The second, which I think is the OP's concern, is the later influence of paganism on Christianity as it became the established religion of the Roman Empire, as Christians absorbed pagan festivals and other influences. For example, there is nothing in the gospels that indicates a birthdate for Jesus of December 25, but that's a significant pagan date, and history makes it clear that the Roman Church coopted that date.

If you google <Christmas Mithras pagan> or a few other terms you should find a variety of sites from different perspectives which describe how Catholicism absorbed pagan rituals. Some of them will be pagan sites that approve of that, some Protestant sites that claim this as evidence that Catholics will burn in Hell, some just general history sites.

Killer Mike

It is generally accepted within mainstream Bible scholarship that Christianity "borrowed" many things from Paganism. The believers of the Pagan God Mithras for example would celebrate his birth on December 25, and they did this for centuries before Christianity came along. Basic themes like miraculous births, death and resurrection, etc.. were all part of Pagan religions. Those who study the Origins of Christianity generally accept that Jesus preached for about 1-3 years and had a small gathering of followers. Following his execution, his followers had believed that the Kingdom of God was at hand, and since the Kingdom of god did not come they began to tell stories about him thru oral tradition. Eventually some of these stories became written down. These stories were largely influenced by the Pagan traditions that were so prevelant in the area at this time in history. We also know that numerology was prevelant at this time. Numbers had symbolic meaning back then. The number 12 for example symbolizes the four (4) corners of the earth times the three (3) spheres (heaven, earth, hell). So 4x3=12. Also 4+3=7.
So 12 and 7 had significant meaning. This is why the numbers 7 and 12 are repeated in the Bible. Jesus had 12 disciples. 7 trumpets blown 7 times. The 7 days of creation in Genesis, etc.. Today we think of numbers in terms of mathamatics or in quantifying things. But back then people did not think like this. Numbers had symbolic meaning.

I would personally recommend any books written by John Dominic Crossen from DePaul University in Chicago. Or Helmut Koester from Harvard.

GakuseiDon

Heh? Is that what countjulian trying to do? He's just given parallels between Christian ideas and pagan ideas. I'm not sure how that shows influence.

Countjulian, are you claiming these these ideas influenced Christianity? If so, what is your evidence.

CJD

Oh, for God's sake. :banghead:

robto

It's a lot easier to find bad information than good information about this topic on web sites. One excellent page is the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Christmas which gives a very detailed summary of the evidence and a reasonable view of the true extent of connections between Christian and pagan traditions. It would be a good one for your religious relatives, too, pretheism.
Well, the pagan celebration probably preceded the Christian one, by not by so much as "centuries". It was the sun god whose birthday was on Dec 25 (Natalis Invicti = "Birth of the Invincible") and that was only initiated at Rome around 270 AD. According to the article just cited, Xmas was on the same date by 354 AD, so the time period is somewhat less than 100 years.

Also as discussed in the cited article, it is not so clear that the pagan celebration had any influence on how Xmas was celebrated, other than that the date was probably chosen to give Xians something to do on the same day, instead of hanging out with the pagans and drinking beer.

I second the recommendation.

John A. Broussard

Great list. I'm saving a copy of it.

One caveat, though.

Roman Mithraism coexisted with budding Christianity. They undoubtedly affected each other, since all religions are synthetic.

I think there are good arguments indicating that what you list above were more likely Christian influences on Mithraism rather than vice versa.