Chili

"Come in the flesh" points at the transformation of body, mind and soul. So, it means that there is reality in, or behind the myth . . . for those who deny the physical birth, resurrection ect.

Soul Invictus

By transformation, do you mean that all three manifest into one, such as when an embryo develops into a fetus or due to the occurence of a live birth?

Chili

No, I am pointing at the transformation of the mind from human to God here called Christ in the person of God (or should I say God in the person of Christ). It includes body, mind and soul through first having the birth of Christ into the conscious mind to create the dual identity wherein we are God conscious (ie. "I am a new creation") while we are still human.

In the case with Jesus of Nazareth his old Jewish nature was crucified and so the Christ nature that came from Nazareth via Mary became known as Jesus Christ now in the flesh that once belonged to the old human nature of Joseph the Jew.

In reality I believe this to be the convergence of our twain mind wherein the conscious mind is placed subservient to the subconscious mind to eliminate the soul. This would require a rerouting of our nerve endings, somehow, in which the body is transformed to get rid of sickness pain etc., as if we are in a permanent state of hypnosis, or close to that.

Notice that I am talking about the rebirth of Joseph with Mary being the identity in charge of his birth-right (she presides over the TOL), hence the betrothal of Joseph to Mary.

Soul Invictus

I'm going to have to dissect this.

You're going to have to explain this again. I don't even know where to begin with this. Can you try a step by step to I can follow where you're going with this?

What do you mean by his Jewish "nature" was crucified? If he actually existed, then I understand the position that he (a human with human flesh) was crucified. How did his Christ "nature" come from Nazareth. I know that Jesus was supposed to have been born at Nazareth. From my understanding, Jesus of Nazareth is the same person as Jesus Christ. Do you agree? Lastly, what are you saying that belonged to his old human nature of Joseph the Jew, and what does that mean?

[quote]In reality I believe this to be the convergence of our twain mind wherein the conscious mind is placed subservient to the subconscious mind to eliminate the soul. This would require a rerouting of our nerve endings, somehow, in which the body is transformed to get rid of sickness pain etc., as if we are in a permanent state of hypnosis, or close to that.[/quoter]

I don't know what this means, but I don't think this has to deal with our discussion, so I'm going to pass on thinking about it..for right now.

Joseph was reborn? Are you talking about salvation? Also, how did you come to the conclusion that Mary is in charge of Jesus's birthright?

Chili

It is very easy, really, if you see the birth of Christ is being the rebirth of Joseph, yes . . . but then "not from carnal desire, or by man's willing it, or by blood, but by God" to say that 2 different kind of rebirths are possible and Joseph, the "upright Jew" was reborn of God (Jn.1:13).

Now if you do not know, or cannot perceive, that a born again person is a new creation you might as well stop here. In fact, it is the very stuff that Catholics are said 'not' to have and for which the Reformation was fought.

So here we have born again Joseph now called Jesus trying to work our his own salvation, which is why Jesus tells us to "follow him" and as much as take Jesus down from the cross and place ourself upon it (if this is what "follow me" means). I understand that this also means that the did not die for my sins . . . yet he did to the extent that he died for the sins of my/our birthright since we are the grafted branch on Judaism (but this gets to complicated for now). Hence we are to be Christian, bought and paid for, and not Jews. From this also follows that he did not die for my personal sins and therefore we must follow him and be crucified like him (which was an allegory also for him). I can add here that Rome is "paid for" but that makes it more complicated again, yet Mary is from Rome, these days, whence comes our birthright that is paid for. It just makes a clean break from Judaism as NT people = no animosity towards Jews but only friendship that runs deeper than blood = the same heaven on earth. So Joseph was human, yes, and he was Jewish, yes, and he was a sinner, yes, and it was unto him that the messiah was born who later but not until after Resurrection was called Christ. Until then was he Jesus with two identities, one of God and one as Jew. This would be like having a dual personality of which the illusory one is crucified and that was the Jewish identity wherein he was human. Call it his persona or mask, if you wish, of which circumcision was a foreshadow. Because Mary was from Nazareth and Nazareth is the imaginary city of God in our mind that contains our very personal inner God-complex including our birthright as firstborn. Ie.we are all firstborn and all have our own Mary who presides over this (I think we call her Alma Mater) or Elizabeth in Matthew. She was Volumnia in Coriolanus. Perhaps you have noticed that Mary makes appearances around the world always as a reflection of local people. Yes, but Jesus of Nazareth was not fully Christ until Jesus the Jew (his human identity) was crucified. I think it is very important because a Beatific Vision is required for the father and son to become one (as if the two side our our brain must be 'fried' together =transfiguration). Gen 3 tells us that in that the woman of the TOL saw that the TOK was good for gaining things and would strike the serpent of the TOK to get us moving towards that end.

Soul Invictus

Are you saying that Jesus is really his father Joseph (i.e. Jesus=his father)

What do you mean when you say Rome is "paid for"?

So Joseph "bore" or fathered himself, and changed his name to Jesus?

So Jesus possessed a dual identity..as God and man. Is 1 Tim.2:5 false?

Since it's a fictional location, it doesn't seem relevant.

Is this really a significant issue? I'm not so much concerned with him being "fully" Christ or not. Jesus is Jesus. Your argument is parallel to saying that I wasn't "fully" me until I became an adult. Things may have changed about me as I developed from a child into an adult (physical attributes, mental and cognitive skills, maturity level, etc), but it doesn't take away that I have always been me.

And what does this have to do with Mary?

Regards,

SI

Chili

Rebirth is not a physical birth for Jesus to 'be' father but Christ indeed is the Child that becomes the father of man because he was from the beginning here made manifest through the greatness of Lord as God -- but that is not important here.The extent to which Jesus died for our sins. It is easy to say it is allegory but there must be truth behind allegory and this is where that phrase points at but is also where it ends. No. God fathered and Joseph was the vessel who was pregant with dispair.No but that was written after Jesus became mediator by means of crucifixion and resurrection.Very much relevant because it contains our motherland wherein is found the city of God.Except that you are an illusion and will die just as Jesus died regardless of how mature you think you are. It is when Jesus became Christ that he never died and dwells among us like a saint in heaven (and we have lots of those). That is the woman in full adornment that we call Mary today.

Soul Invictus

What do you mean by the extent to which Jesus died for our sins? You said Rome is paid for. What does that mean and what ramifications does this payment have?

I thought Mary was the pregnant vessel.

Well whether the text was written before or after Jesus's crucifiction and resurrection is not important. You say that Jesus is God and man. This verse states that there is one mediator between men and God and that this is the man Jesus. Your position implies that Jesus's being god and man equates to god=god and man. This verse implies that god is not that same as a man. I want to know which position is correct.

Except that you are an illusion and will die just as Jesus died regardless of how mature you think you are. It is when Jesus became Christ that he never died and dwells among us like a saint in heaven (and we have lots of those).

Where does Genesis support your assertion that the reference is to Mary? My recollection of Christianity says that the woman is Eve.

Chili

He die to the sins of our fore-fathers and these are those of Judaism as a tribe. It is therefore that we worship Christ as our God and not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Take a good look at the difference between the lineage from Matthew to Luke where in Matthew the [factual] recorded lineage is from Abraham to Jesus who was 'only' called the messiah because Christ was the messiah wherefore in Luke it was 'supposed' that Jesus was the messiah while in fact Christ was the messiah who's lineage goes back past Abraham, past Adam to God.

It makes Catholicism non-Abrahamic with a mother land of our own called Christendom instead of Israel. Here too, it has no national boundaries but is a state of mind held by the Church Triumphant = Rome sweet Home.Mary is the womb of man containing the dowry in betrothal to be unfolded after the birth of Christ. It arrives with Epiphany.Dual identity, one as God and one as Jew with the Jewish identiy being the cross of Jesus the man in the image of God. Because Eve was created by conjecture in the shame complex that internalizes the fall of man in Gen.3. This would be the necessary flip side of man in the image of God being the son of man reborn by the womb of man in the image of God here called Mary (that was taken from man for that reason).