Overcomer

One thing I hate to see is people insulting other people just because they don't agree with them.

I have seen atheists accuse Christians of not providing reasoned arguments. And they're right. Some of them don't. However, I have also seen atheists who don't bother providing constructive information or valid theories with intelligent evidence as well. They merely insult, thinking that's clever. But it has no value to any discussion, no matter what the topic.

Your statement suggests that you have either never read the Bible or, if you did, you didn't understand it. The wisdom in it is timeless. The Gospel is all about love -- Christ's love in giving his life that we might have life and how he wants us to love each other as he has loved us. That message pertains to ALL people all over the world throughout all of time. The fact that people, including Christians, aren't able to do that perfectly doesn't mean that it's a bad lesson or that it doesn't apply to us today. It just means it's harder than it looks!

Having said that, my following post is all about the need to study and learn and, unlike some of the posts in this thread, it will actually address the question asked.

Look at it this way:

When you were born you had to learn everything, right? You had to learn how to crawl, then walk, then talk. As you grew, your education continued. You learned simple arithmetic. Then, over the course of years, you learned higher math including geometry, algebra, statistics, etc.

Your vocabulary grew, too, as did your ability to understand more and more difficult concepts. You read deeper books that demanded more of you. But you weren't born with those abilities. You had to learn them.

The same is true for the Christian. When I entered into a relationship with Jesus Christ, I was born again. That means the slate was wiped clean and I got a chance to start over with God. But I wasn't born knowing everything about Him or about His Word. I was a baby Christian who had to learn and grow and be educated.

Some people are good students. Obviously, if a kid does all of his homework, reads everything he is supposed to, studies hard, he will do well. But there are some who don't bother to do any work and they get lousy grades because they don't understand what the teacher tried to teach them.

And how we do in school sometimes depends on our teacher. Some teachers aren't very good at their jobs. Others are able to impart knowledge well. Some teachers actually teach the wrong information. Other teachers are experts in their fields and give us correct information.

And, of course, we have many influences outside of school. There is our family, our friends, the media, the books we choose to read, etc. There are many things influencing how we think and how we understand the world around us. None of us grow up in a vacuum.

All of this is true for Christians as well. Some people spend a lot of time studying the Bible, listening to good preaching and teaching, spending time in prayer, listening for the Holy Spirit's direction. They are learning and growing in knowledge and wisdom all the time.

Others don't. They never attend Bible studies. They don't do any studying on their own. They don't pray. They don't ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They simply show up at church every week. And there's nothing that says that, when they're there, they're paying attention and learning anything. Therefore, their understanding of God's Word is faulty.

Does the true student ever stop learning? Of course not. The doctor is always taking refresher courses and reading the medical journals to learn new things about his profession. The good teacher is always taking courses to give them more knowledge and the ability to impart that knowledge more effectively. The mechanic is always having to learn about new cars and new engines to be able to do his job well. The musician is always practising to improve and always learning and being challenged by new music.

In other words, nobody knows everything about their chosen profession but they increase in knowledge and ability over time. The same is true of the Christian. Hopefully, the baby Christian will mature into an adult Christian. But they don't always. It depends upon their level of commitment.

I mentioned the Holy Spirit earlier in this post. He's the best teacher because he brings revelation knowledge of God's Word. He is God himself living inside the Christian to teach him, to strengthen him, to comfort him, to help him grow in the Lord.

It's also important to understand that only the spirit understands the things of the Spirit. In other words, learning for a Christian isn't solely an intellectual pursuit. It's a spiritual one. I have met Christians who are very into head knowledge about the Bible and the Lord. They know Greek and Hebrew and can do a brilliant exegesis of any Biblical passage. But they have no heart knowledge of the Lord. They don't spend time with him and don't get to know him intimately.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have met Christians who have no head knowledge of the Lord but are totally into emotionally-charged experiences with the Lord. They scare me because some of their experiences have nothing to do with God. In fact, sometimes they have more to do with the devil than with the Lord. They've turned off their brains and that's a dangerous thing!

It's so important to be balanced, having both personal experiences with God that do indeed arouse the emotions, as well as intellectual study of God's Word where the mind is exercised and applied correctly.

I should also mention that it's possible to ignore the Holy Spirit. It's also possible to quench his fire by NOT attending church, not reading the Bible, not getting Bible teaching and by doing things that aren't pleasing to God and pursuing sin habits. In this case, the person who calls himself a Christian isn't listening to the Holy Spirit. He's probably listening to the guy at work or the news anchor on the 6 o'clock news or his own fleshly interest and desires.

Also bear in mind that sometimes bad teachers come along and fill Christians' heads with things that have nothing to do with God. The devil is always trying to get Christians off-track. The baby Christian is not well-versed in spiritual warfare. That, too, improves with time and practice. Christians are always under attack from the devil as he doesn't want us in a relationship with God. He wants to destroy our relationships and works hard to do so.

It's interesting to note that Paul, in 1 Corinthians 13, says that now we see through a glass darkly, but when we enter heaven, we will see everything clearly. No Christian is going to know everything there is to know about God or the Bible in this lifetime. But they will know all in the next.

In the meantime, it's up to the Christian to go through the process of education and, as I said, some are more attentive to the task than others and therefore have more success.

Overcomer

I thought this deserved extra comment. I take exception to the last statement about people changing their beliefs just to be different. That isn't accurate. Let me explain:

You're right that Luther had no intention of forming a separate church. He was forced to because the Roman Catholic one wouldn't change. However, his goal was to get the church back to the point where they taught what the Bible taught. In other words, he wanted God and God's Word to be the foundation for the church. The church had gotten so far from God's Word and had become tremendously corrupt.

But to say they changed for the sake of change isn't correct. Their goal was to get back to the Word of God. When it became apparent that the Roman Catholic Church wasn't going to do that, they started setting up independent churches for the purpose of teaching people what God said since that wasn't being done in many RCC churches as, sadly, many priests were poorly educated and hadn't even read the Bible themselves.

Overcomer

After I logged off, it hit me that there was one other error I should have addressed. It's this one:

I'm afraid you have it backwards. The Apocrypha were ADDED by the Roman Catholic Church at the time of the Protestant Reformation. Why? Because the Roman Catholic Church wanted to justify some of its unBiblical beliefs, practices and teachings. The books of the Apocrypha contained some of them and they felt that, if they called those books God's Word, that would make it all right.

Of course, that didn't sit well with Luther and the other reformers! And there were valid reasons for NOT including those books in the Bible originally. They didn't meet the high standards set for inclusion in the canon. For one thing, they contained known factual errors.

The books that are included in the Bible today were all written in the first century and were unoffically accepted as God's Word by the middle of the second. Some people mistakenly believe that Constantine decided which books should be in the Bible and which shouldn't. That isn't true because, as I said, they had already been settled upon two centuries before that. In Constantine's time, the church simply made the books "official". That's all.

I'm sorry that I don't have time to post some links for about the Biblical canon, the Apochrypha and the Protestant Reformation. I usually like to provide some for anybody who wants to explore what I've said further, but I've actually spent more time here this morning than I can afford.

However, I can suggest a good book that looks at the New Testament authorship and canonicity. It's An Introduction to the New Testament by Carson, Moo and Morris. It's a detailed look at the books, their dating and provenance, etc. Luke Johnson has a good one, too, that's a little more readable than the Introduction to the N.T. book. I'm sorry, but I can't think of one for the Old Testament off the top of my head.

Weltall

We're not insulting you, we're disagreeing.
No, we understand it quite well. The same problem Twain had in fact... It's a Mineral Age to Iron Age book that reflects the times it was written in.
Yes, the world is indeed flat and supported by pillars and the Earth is the center of the universe... Oh, and it's ok to slaughter everyone who you don't like and keep the virgin girls for yourselves. Yep, wisdom aplenty. Now where's that barfing smiley?
Must have been some other Christ that said 'Hate your family' and "I come to bring not peace but a sword'.
I'm glad to know your relationship with your imaginary friend is going well. Your subjective experiences aren't worth much to us however.
For purposes of debate, it is helpful to construct valid analogies. Students and teachers actually exist, this can not be said for your god.
So why does he never return our calls?
I can sense this is going to turn into a 'You don't understand the bible because you don't have the HS' crapfest. Thank you, I'll pass. Would you want to spend intimite time with Hitler? As far as genocide goes, he's a con man compared to God.
And how do you tell the difference? Isn't it just your subjective interpretation.
Pot, meet Kettle.
Translation: The interpretation that confirms what you already believe.
We're not buying what you have to sell until you can show us the product exists.

gee

Weltall;

"None are contemporary...."
This whole question has been loaded. The separate contemporary accounts eventually made it into the canon.

"Proof of nothing... "
What? I didn't change your entire life in one post? I'm so shocked. I had such high hopes.

Just joking. I'm really not trying to prove anything to you.

"..........I could have fun with"

I know you were .

See you in the posts,

gee

Jedi Mind Trick

The thing I hate to see is people consigning other people to an imaginary place of eternal torture just because they disagree with their “holy� book.

What’s worse is the insult added… “But God loves you anyway.�

You’re right. Yes, there are many very well read and intelligent Christians and no fair minded atheist would deny that. Also, There are many who put up well reasoned arguments for their belief in an un-provable deity.

However, The worst ones are the ones who emphasize many of the fallacies that you just did in this post and also those who try their damnedest to prove that the object of their faith should be an obvious fact to every person. Worse yet are those who mistake their own prater and preaching for sound argumentation and then proceed to lecture others about reasonable arguments.

Yes, sometimes there are insults and no substance… But tell me, why should an atheist necessarily need to provide info for the basic position of non-belief? The atheist’s position is a default position in lieu of better substantiated info from those pitching the idea of some deity. Remember, you’re the vacuum cleaner salesman at my door.

So far, I hear what you all are saying… But I’m not buying.

False Dichotomy and presumption.
Omitted middle:
* Read the bible… Check!
* Understood the bible… Check!
* Rejected it as illogical and hateful… Check!

That’s debatable. However, even if this is true it would hardly make it unique.

Before Abraham was “I Am.�
Yahweh/Jesus created the world knowing that, though he would save some men, he would in the end have to damn the vast majority. This, even if human freewill is maintained, is a condition that he positively willed.

Yes, he even wants us to love our enemies and to bless those that curse us. However, he is exempt from this high moral standard because he will, without relenting, torture his enemies for all eternity… (NOTE: Him simply allowing it or not makes no difference in reference to an omni-being)

The fact that people, including Christians, aren’t able to do that perfectly means that Christians have no more of a leg up on morals and love than anyone else. It just means it's harder than quoting old musty books. It takes genuine love for humanity as it is.

Really?

I have known several opposing views of Christian thought within the Christian camp and I can honestly say that they all present both scholarly and well reasoned defenses for their opposing points of view. Rarely have I seen cases where one side is just blatantly lazy. Calvinists –vs- Armenians, Protestants –vs- Catholics, Orthodox tradition (new to me) –vs- Western tradition… Etc.

So I don’t buy the “they obviously don’t study as well as we.�

You see, this is one of my major peeves with Christianity. It not only creates an “us –vs- them� attitude with outsiders, but more importantly among their own kind.

Instead of refuting the OP you are providing us with a perfect example of just the sort of thinking that spawns the division the OP was referring to.

Some people do grow up in a self imposed vacuum. One that places their mind into a cozy coma of dogma and another made out of the warm fuzzy of emotion.

You and your brand I suppose?

Yes… Now we talk about them. The ones that disagree with you and your brand, I suppose?

Sniff… Sniff, Sniff. Yep, all that I quoted smells like a strawman argument against the poster’s theological opponents.

Well, the rest of your post is consitent with what I have quoted so far...

Julian

Excellent post, Weltall.

Julian

Jedi Mind Trick

How do you know that the accounts in the cannon were contemporaneous?
You do know that authorship is a disputed area in biblical studies, don't you?

What would be rock solid evedence? I think indisputable contemporaneous and unfavorable eyewitness accounts of at least one of the events... but there exists nothing like it for Jesus. This is the case, sadly for the apologist, even though there should have been a not too modest market for it given the powerful enemies Jesus and the apostles had and the extent of Jesus' fame, according to the bible.

dlj

I've noticed some of you say/imply that most and in some cases all Christians believe:
1)that the Bible is infallible, perfect, and/or written by God and is the sole source of the Word/Will of God
2)that they believe that they are constantly being guided, invidually by the Holy Ghost/Spirit
3)that most Christian sects believe that all members of most other (if not all other) Christian sects are going to hell

I personally feel that this is a gross misrepresentation of Christians that is a result of people taking the views of evagelical/conservative Christians, typically found in the American south, as the views of all Christians. I would like to see some kind of statistics or evidence to back up your claims of items 1-3. Thanks.

Jedi Mind Trick

If this does not describe your concept of the Christian god then great! Not my problem... The issue in the OP is disagreement in xianity over what the bible says. I come from a fundy background and I eventually became a universalist who believed that the bible was being misunderstood by those who claimed that hell awaits. Eventually I learned that the eternal torment doctrine, the universalist (apocotastasis) doctrine and the annihilationist doctrine were all represented in the earliest teachings of the church fathers.

My point... The bible says nothing for sure about it because it is a pastiche of opportunistic ideas about god. This also was a further confirmation to me that all sides in Christian doctrine are fairly well represented.

Now, why do I focus on the eternal torment teaching in my criticisms? Because historically it was the doctrine that won the day. Whether or not you specifically hold that idea is beside the point.

As for a wooden literalism and infallibility, I am fully aware that there is a wide range of ideas on it.

So as to:
1) In the case of most posters who drive-by here, yes.
2) Many do, if you do not, then great!
3) Some don't... Many do... if in no other way than by the implications of their most strongly held doctrines.

For instance, some churches who understand the bible's stance on homosexuality differently than the traditional understanding would without hesitation condemn the more accepting as "false apostles." They would do exactly what Paul said "let them be accursed" who preach a different gospel.

I fully recognize the diversity in Christian thought, but the preponderance of the Western (Catholic/Protestant) theology teaches that the bible is, at the very least, a sure guide (Catholics put tradition first), that those who do not adhere to sound teaching put their souls in danger of damnation and that the damned will be sent to a place of eternal suffering.

BTW,
I have no statistics on these points 1-3 I just have good reading comprehension. And I’ve read rather wide on those topics, enough to know that each point 1-3 are not at all marginal.