Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-22-2008, 02:14 PM

The Jesus Mysteries list has a note about this book:

Lord of the Cosmos: Mithras, Paul, and the Gospel of Mark (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Michael Patella

Amazon has one customer review, which trashed it for an alleged claim that Mithraism was around when Paul wrote, but, from the Google Books preview, I don't think that this reviewer actually read the book.

The book can be previewed on Google Books, and there is a helpful review here by James G. Crossley.

Quote:

This book is one of the results of the manly sounding Task Force on Mark, a gathering at the annual meeting of the Catholic Biblical Association of America. Patella’s main thesis is to show that Mark and Paul provide an alternative to Platonic-influenced Hellenistic cosmology by using and transcending well-known Hellenistic categories. Patella provides an overview of Hellenistic cosmology, astrology, and astronomy, grounded in Plato’s Timaeus. He then proceeds to show how Jewish texts interacted with their Hellenistic contexts, with particular reference to the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah, 2 En. 8:1–10:6, the Treatise of Shem, and 2 Cor 12:1–4.

So this is no flakey atheistic internet poster trying to bring down Christianity. (Crossley faults the author for being too Christian.) From what I have read so far on Google, Patella seems aware of the latest research on Mithras. He also accepts a standard view of Christian history, with Christianity existing in Rome from the mid-first century, and Paul dying there in the 60's.

I am reading the Google Books preview now. I invite comments.

Darklighter · 01-22-2008, 02:24 PM

Does this relate to where the "coin in the fishes mouth" story came from? If not, what was that? I read a brief snippet about that and wanted to read more, as I'd never heard that.

Toto · 01-22-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Does this relate to where the "coin in the fishes mouth" story came from? If not, what was that? I read a brief snippet about that and wanted to read more, as I'd never heard that.

Fish story thread

The number of the fishes is supposed to relate to Pythagoras.

Patella thinks that both Mithraism and Pauline Christianity use concepts from Plato's Timeaus, particularly astrotheological language and concepts.

Clivedurdle · 01-22-2008, 02:45 PM

Didn't I link to Timaeus somewhere?

Roger Pearse · 01-23-2008, 12:51 AM

From the preview it seems that he derived his idea based on Vermaseren (i.e. Cumont), and then added more stuff to it from Ulansey and Beck. I suspect that he really has not taken on board the archaeological objection to the Persian origin of Mithras.

andrewcriddle · 01-23-2008, 11:17 AM

The book appears committed to Ulansey's understanding of Mithraism in terms of the precession of the equinoxes, Ulansey has been strongly criticized by Beck Swedlow and others. (See http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1995/95.09.10.html for some useful references)

Some other scholars such as Turcan in Mithras Platonicus have suggested that whatever the origins of Mithraism as a mystery religion its links to Platonism are relatively late say 2nd century CE.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 01-23-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The book appears committed to Ulansey's understanding of Mithraism in terms of the precession of the equinoxes, Ulansey has been strongly criticized by Beck Swedlow and others. (See http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1995/95.09.10.html for some useful references)

This is a review of Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies (or via: amazon.co.uk), ed John R. Hinnells

Quote:

Several writers represented here were deeply impressed by the 1989 monograph by David Ulansey, The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World, and accept, though not without qualifications, his theory that Mithras personified the force responsible for the precession of the equinoxes (discovered by Hipparchus in the second century B.C.). None had as yet had an opportunity to consider the review of Ulansey's book by N.M. Swerdlow in Classical Philology 86 (1991) 48-63, which is likely to engender second thoughts, especially about the identification of the torchbearers in the tauroctony with the equinoxes. (This alone requires the precession to be invoked, in order to place the equinoxes in Taurus and Scorpio, as was the case c. 4,000-2,000 B.C., and justify the identification of Mithras with the constellation Perseus, located just above Taurus in the sky.) Criticism of Ulansey's principal thesis is expressed at some length in this collection, by Beck (29-50) and Waldman (265-77).

Quote:

Some other scholars such as Turcan in Mithras Platonicus have suggested that whatever the origins of Mithraism as a mystery religion its links to Platonism are relatively late say 2nd century CE.

Andrew Criddle

Another hard to find resource. Mithras Platonicus: Recherches sur l'hellénisation philosophique de Mithra, by R. Turcan

There is a review of the more generally available work by Beck here.:

Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire: Mysteries of the Unconquered Sun (or via: amazon.co.uk)

which can be previewed on Google Books.

But getting back to the OP, I am interested in the Mithraic symbolism that Paul allegedly uses, and how that can be identified.

andrewcriddle · 01-26-2008, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But getting back to the OP, I am interested in the Mithraic symbolism that Paul allegedly uses, and how that can be identified.

Hi Toto

I've been reading through the Google Books preview to try and answer this.
It's a bit difficult without the whole book and what follows is IIUC

Patella seems to be drawing parallels between the alternation of opposites in Mithraism (light/darkness summer/winter and particularly the alternating exaltation and dimininution of the sun's power in the course of the year) and the pattern of humiliation and glorification found in Paul and other NT writers.

IMO Patella's understanding of the explicit binary polarity in Mithraism is mostly correct, on the basis of literary sources such as Porphyry (see http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/po...ranslation.htm ) as well as the archaeological evidence.

However binary polarities of some sort are ubiquitous in religious and philosophical systems; and vague resemblances between the binary polarities in Mithraism and ideas in Paul are not IMO very convincing. FWIW I would find it easier to make a connection between the polarities in Mithraism and those in John's Gospel (where both light and darkness and ascent and descent are central themes) than a connection between Paul and Mithraism.

Andrew Criddle

schilling.klaus · 01-26-2008, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

have suggested that whatever the origins of Mithraism as a mystery religion its links to Platonism are relatively late say 2nd century CE.

the gospels and Paul's epistles are at least equally late,
so there's no problem

Klaus Schilling

Clivedurdle · 01-26-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

n Chapter 5 the anthropological approach of Clifford Geertz is applied to the Mithraic mysteries. The aim is to focus on the intent of the whole Mithraic symbol system by placing the performance of ritual and the construction, apprehension and utilisation of symbolic forms above the individual significance of the icon(s) or the sacred space itself. The greatest difficulty here is that Mithraic ritual cannot be observed, and Beck is well aware of this problem. He proposes that it is possible to undertake a Geertzian description of Mithraic ritual as the Mithraeum itself and the seven grades that initiates attained can still be entered into. It is possible to do this, he claims, by accessing appropriate referents observable within the broader culture of Graeco-Roman paganism. Essentially, the Mithraic model of the universe as conceived in the Mithraeum is the Graeco-Roman model established by Plato in the Timaeus.

From review of Beck above.

There does seem to be a very strong tendency to assume stuff - like Roger's comment on archaeology above - and use positivist methods that do miss the point.

If we are looking at a religion that is primarily experiential and not doctrinal, xian based assumptions of teacher pupil relations and the importance of pictures misses the whole system thinking that is the basis of anthropology.

May I strongly recommend Gore Vidal's Julian (or via: amazon.co.uk) for an excellent experiential description of the Mithraic initiation.

Fascinating that an author in the 1960's was able to "get" this!

We are stuck with the stars again!:devil1:

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01-22-2008, 02:24 PM	#2
Darklighter Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pale Blue Dot Posts: 463	Does this relate to where the "coin in the fishes mouth" story came from? If not, what was that? I read a brief snippet about that and wanted to read more, as I'd never heard that.

01-22-2008, 02:45 PM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Didn't I link to Timaeus somewhere?

01-23-2008, 12:51 AM	#5
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	From the preview it seems that he derived his idea based on Vermaseren (i.e. Cumont), and then added more stuff to it from Ulansey and Beck. I suspect that he really has not taken on board the archaeological objection to the Persian origin of Mithras.

01-23-2008, 11:17 AM	#6
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	The book appears committed to Ulansey's understanding of Mithraism in terms of the precession of the equinoxes, Ulansey has been strongly criticized by Beck Swedlow and others. (See http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1995/95.09.10.html for some useful references) Some other scholars such as Turcan in Mithras Platonicus have suggested that whatever the origins of Mithraism as a mystery religion its links to Platonism are relatively late say 2nd century CE. Andrew Criddle

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