Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 06-17-2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knuper

Because only Christ's death is what makes us clean. Jesus said in John 16:7, "Unless I go away, the Counselor (Holy Spirit) will not come to you."

Without Jesus's sacrifice for our sins, we would have no atonement for them. The Holy Spirit is also Jesus himself (the Holy Ghost, if you will) that we could not receive if Jesus himself had not died in the flesh and become Spirit. So the Holy Spirit is the risen Lord.

Even if Jesus rose from the dead, there is not any credible evidence that he died for anyone's sins. In addition, who will make God clean regarding all of the sins that he has committed? If God exists, he is a proven baby killer, and a killer of innocent animals. Sometimes he kills people discriminately, and sometimes he kills people indiscriminately. That is good evidence of mental incompetence. Even Attila the Hun did not kill people who loved him along with his enemies.

I find it to be quite odd that you frequently quote Scripture since God refused to provide any Scripture at all to hundreds of millions of people who died without hearing the Gospel message. I also find it to be quite odd that Christians at this forum consider discussing the Bible to be important when God does not consider discussing the Bible to be important.

ughaibu · 06-17-2007, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

Ezekiel 36:25-27 --- 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

I thought god tried this, and it killed everyone except Noah's mob.

Clouseau · 06-18-2007, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ughaibu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

Ezekiel 36:25-27 --- 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

I thought god tried this, and it killed everyone except Noah's mob.

Maybe you're right there. Maybe one man's meat is another man's poison.

Chili · 06-18-2007, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Because only Christ's death is what makes us clean. Jesus said in John 16:7, "Unless I go away, the Counselor (Holy Spirit) will not come to you."

Without Jesus's sacrifice for our sins, we would have no atonement for them. The Holy Spirit is also Jesus himself (the Holy Ghost, if you will) that we could not receive if Jesus himself had not died in the flesh and become Spirit. So the Holy Spirit is the risen Lord.

You have this just backwards. Jesus died his first death to set Christ free and was raised to be with Christ. After this Jesus left to die his second death while Christ Jesus remained among us.

Jayrok · 06-18-2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knupfer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

Ezekiel 36:25-27 --- 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (King James Version)

God will regather his people, sprinkle water on them and cleanse them from their iniquities... Then give them a new heart and will put his (God's) spirit within them, which will cause them to walk righteously in his statutes and be able to keep his judgments (laws/commandments).

Verse 36 -- .... I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

Question - If it is possible and even God's plan (in writing) to cleanse the Israelites, and put his own spirit in them to allow them to be able to follow his laws properly, why didn't he do it?

1. Why the need to send Jesus at all? If God was going to fix it where they were righteous and could keep his laws, isn't that what he wanted the whole time?

2. If the laws were too difficult to keep and only pointed out man's sin, as Paul taught, why would God make a false promise (or sense of hope) like that to the Jews where he promises they'll receive a new heart and be able to follow his laws?

3. And if he did follow through on his promise to put his spirit in them to cause them to keep his laws, how would that not violate their free will?

Because only Christ's death is what makes us clean. Jesus said in John 16:7, "Unless I go away, the Counselor (Holy Spirit) will not come to you."

Without Jesus's sacrifice for our sins, we would have no atonement for them. The Holy Spirit is also Jesus himself (the Holy Ghost, if you will) that we could not receive if Jesus himself had not died in the flesh and become Spirit. So the Holy Spirit is the risen Lord.

So you're saying the fulfillment of the first part of Ezekiel 36 is the Holy Spirit coming to the disciples after Jesus' death.

Ok, why didn't the second part of Ezekiel 36 live up to the prophecy? God said when he puts a new heart and spirit into his people they would be able to follow his laws and decrees with no trouble.

Yet Paul tries to teach the Jews that those Laws only show their sin and that Jesus' act on the cross abolished the Laws so they are no longer required... now only faith in Jesus is required.

But that isn't what God said. He said he would fix it so they could do the Law. But we have Paul writing to a bunch of Gentiles claiming God set aside those laws and commandments in favor of belief in Jesus. Why would we believe Paul's written letters over God's written word?

Where in the OT does God say his decrees would be canceled? Abraham was justified in his faith... that's fine. But the Mosaic Laws came after Abraham so God decided to lay some regulations on his people. And he said they were eternal laws.

God said with his spirit inside the Jews they would be able to follow his Laws successfully and to his satisfaction. Why couldn't Peter and the other Jewish disciples successfully practice the Law from the time they received the Holy Spirit? That would have been a decent step in fulfillment of this portion of Ezekiel 36. But you'd still have the trouble of the last few chapters of Ezekiel.

Apparently they couldn't because they eventually listened and agreed with Paul... or so we're told.

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