Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dave · 11-05-2007, 03:11 PM

hitchens has said on a couple of occasions that jewish men thank god every morning in their prayers that they are not women and that they are not gentiles. is this really true?

fta · 11-05-2007, 03:20 PM

Jewish article on the subject:

...Who Has Not Made Me a Woman

Howard · 11-05-2007, 03:37 PM

Considering menstruation, PMS, pregnancy, childbirth, post-partum depression and menopause, I’m pretty thankful I’m not a woman.

Buck Laser · 11-05-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard

Considering menstruation, PMS, pregnancy, childbirth, post-partum depression and menopause, I’m pretty thankful I’m not a woman.

But considering the fact that women are mostly healthier, arguably smarter and longer lived, I'm not sure we have the best of the bargain. I'm just fine with who I am, but that damned testosterone gets me in trouble every time.

J-D · 11-05-2007, 03:41 PM

Strictly speaking, the blessing in question does not say anything about 'thanking': the translation is 'Blessed are you, Lord [that is, YHVH, but the name is not pronounced] our God, king of the universe, who has not made me a woman.' The prayerbook also contains a parallel blessing for women: 'Blessed are you, Lord [YHVH] our God, king of the universe, who has made me according to his will.' They occur near another blessing which says: 'Blessed are you, Lord [YHVH] our God, king of the universe, who has not made me a slave.' But what are Jewish slaves supposed to say?

The extent to which Jewish blessings are supposed to express thankfulness to God may perhaps be debated. There are blessings prescribed for all sorts of occasions: on hearing thunder; on seeing lightning; on seeing the sea; on going to the toilet; before eating; after eating; on seeing scholars of the Jewish law; on seeing scholars learned in secular subjects; on seeing people with deformities (in which God is described as the one who 'varies the form of his creatures'); on hearing good news (in which God is described as the one who 'is good and does good'); on hearing bad news (in which God is described as 'the true judge').

John Kesler · 11-06-2007, 08:28 AM

If you don't think that "blessing" is misogynistic enough, try Sirach 42

Quote:

13 for from garments comes the moth,
and from a woman comes woman's wickedness.
14 Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good;
it is woman who brings shame and disgrace.

Minimalist · 11-06-2007, 08:39 AM

Reminds me of an old joke:

Quote:

A man goes to see the Rabbi.
"Rabbi, something terrible is happening and I have to talk to you about it."
The Rabbi asked, "What's wrong?"
The man replied, "My wife is poisoning me."
The Rabbi, very surprised by this, asks, "How can that be?"
The man then pleads, "I'm telling you, I'm certain she's poisoning me, what should I do?"
The Rabbi then offers, "Tell you what. Let me talk to her, I'll see what I can find out and I'll let you know."
A week later the Rabbi calls the man and says, "Well, I spoke to your wife. I spoke to her on the phone for three hours. You want my advice?"
The man said yes and the Rabbi replied,
"Take the poison."

J-D · 11-06-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

If you don't think that "blessing" is misogynistic enough, try Sirach 42

Quote:

13 for from garments comes the moth,
and from a woman comes woman's wickedness.
14 Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good;
it is woman who brings shame and disgrace.

Note that this book is one of those described as 'Apocryphal'. The Apocrypha are included in Catholic and Orthodox versions of the Bible, are assigned a different and lower status in Protestant traditions, and are completely unrecognised in Jewish tradition.

John Kesler · 11-06-2007, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Note that this book is one of those described as 'Apocryphal'. The Apocrypha are included in Catholic and Orthodox versions of the Bible, are assigned a different and lower status in Protestant traditions, and are completely unrecognised in Jewish tradition.

If Sirach is "completely unrecognised in Jewish tradition," then why is it, as The Anchor Bible Dictionary states, "quoted approvingly in the Talmud and other rabbinical writings" some 82 times? Why was it included in the Septuagint, a Jewish work, if it is "completely unrecognized in Jewish tradition"? :huh:

J-D · 11-07-2007, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Note that this book is one of those described as 'Apocryphal'. The Apocrypha are included in Catholic and Orthodox versions of the Bible, are assigned a different and lower status in Protestant traditions, and are completely unrecognised in Jewish tradition.

If Sirach is "completely unrecognised in Jewish tradition," then why is it, as The Anchor Bible Dictionary states, "quoted approvingly in the Talmud and other rabbinical writings" some 82 times? Why was it included in the Septuagint, a Jewish work, if it is "completely unrecognized in Jewish tradition"? :huh:

OK, you're right.

What I meant was that the book, as a book, doesn't have canonical status in Jewish bibles, or even the 'deuterocanonical' status assigned by Protestants.

Obviously inclusion in the Septuagint means that it did then have some such status, but it doesn't now.

Again, the references in the Talmud would have whatever status being referred to in the Talmud gives.

My point is that a Catholic or Orthodox Christian quoting the book is quoting 'the Bible', but this is not true (now, as opposed to in ancient times) for an Orthodox Jew quoting it.

11-05-2007, 03:11 PM	#1
Dave Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: PA Posts: 181	Do Jewish men really thank god every morning that they aren't women? hitchens has said on a couple of occasions that jewish men thank god every morning in their prayers that they are not women and that they are not gentiles. is this really true?

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11-05-2007, 03:20 PM	#2
fta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Oceania Posts: 334	Jewish article on the subject: ...Who Has Not Made Me a Woman

11-05-2007, 03:37 PM	#3
Howard Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 5,864	Considering menstruation, PMS, pregnancy, childbirth, post-partum depression and menopause, I’m pretty thankful I’m not a woman.

11-05-2007, 03:41 PM	#5
J-D Moderator - General Religious Discussions Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New South Wales Posts: 27,330	Strictly speaking, the blessing in question does not say anything about 'thanking': the translation is 'Blessed are you, Lord [that is, YHVH, but the name is not pronounced] our God, king of the universe, who has not made me a woman.' The prayerbook also contains a parallel blessing for women: 'Blessed are you, Lord [YHVH] our God, king of the universe, who has made me according to his will.' They occur near another blessing which says: 'Blessed are you, Lord [YHVH] our God, king of the universe, who has not made me a slave.' But what are Jewish slaves supposed to say? The extent to which Jewish blessings are supposed to express thankfulness to God may perhaps be debated. There are blessings prescribed for all sorts of occasions: on hearing thunder; on seeing lightning; on seeing the sea; on going to the toilet; before eating; after eating; on seeing scholars of the Jewish law; on seeing scholars learned in secular subjects; on seeing people with deformities (in which God is described as the one who 'varies the form of his creatures'); on hearing good news (in which God is described as the one who 'is good and does good'); on hearing bad news (in which God is described as 'the true judge').

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