JoeWallack

JW:
Right, it looks like the "nuns" are coming through as "�*". Always a problem with the nuns. I kind of remember some other rarer letter being reproduced as a different Hebrew letter.

Anyway, I forgot about you. Velcome.



Joseph

Ben C Smith

Here is Psalm 22.17 (MT) sans vowel points:

כי סבבו�*י כלבים עדת מרעים הקיפו�*י כארי ידי ורגלי׃

This should work on nearly all browsers.

Ben.

ETA: The letter nun is still coming out badly. That is a by-product, I suspect, of the software used for this forum; the capital Greek letter pi is also affected.

JoeWallack

JW:
In order to determine the proper meaning of the offending Hebrew word in Psalm 22:17 the best and therefore First Category of evidence to look at is Hebrew Textual Variation. So an Inventory of the Masoretic is in Order:

Frum Paul Tobin's Exxxcellent site (which near as I can tell is reliable):

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pierce.html#hev

Here is a survey of the offending word from the Masoretic text:



The meticuolus Tobin footnotes these stats as:

"43. Elliger & Rudolph, Biblia Hebraica Stutgartensia: p1104"

(My CD version doesn't have this)

The majority reading of "kaari" would be in thousands of manuscripts. "kaaru" is said to be in 3 to 10. This probably means that 3 manuscripts clearly have a "vav" at the end while with 7 manuscripts its unclear whether the last letter is a "vav" or "yod". For those who don't know Hebrew you can see in the image that "kaari" has a "yod" at the end while "kaaru" has a "vav". Note that a "vav" is a "yod" which extends all the way down so if a letter made by hand was in between you couldn't be sure which was meant.
"karu" is in two manuscripts.

So "kaaru" is not just a "minority" reading. It's a rarer reading than Gordon Gecko's interest in Annacott Steel.

I think the first conclusion to make is that with this kind of ratio, thousands to 3-10 and 2, the default position is that "kaari" is likely original.

We also have one more Hebrew text to consider, a scrap from Never Halach. But first (and craftily) I present the above for Consideration and Comment.

By the way, why Am I having to do this. Where the hell is Spin?



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Phlox Pyros

To be honest, I'm not quite sure how to take this when combined with your previous assumptive condemnation of me...anyways...

It is not working for me in Firefox either...

Hmm...works for me now as well. Perhaps the server was down when I clicked on it earlier because I just got a 404 error (or something similar).

I have not encountered this "tendency" in my own studies. Of course, I know of the normal letters that have special forms at the ends of words, but yod is not one of them.

I would like to enhance my knowledge. Can you provide me a peer-reviewed source in semitic writing/palaeography for this assertion please?

Are you a KJV only kind of guy? Just curious 'cause they hold to a very similar position.

Considering that there is good scholarly weight behind both readings, I find it kind of hard to be sure which reading was the original. However, I will say that "like a lion" makes no sense to me and that I have even read where many of those who support the reading think so as well.

Chris Weimer

I'm going to agree with Joe - the issue of K)RW is unsettled still. I've never seen an elongated yod at the end of a word before, even when browsing pictures of other DSS. I think probably K)RW is some variant of KRW and it became corrupted into K)RY. Seems plausible in my opinion.

Anat

If we read the verb 'karu' - doesn't this usually (always?) refer to digging holes in the ground? And if so, what is the subject of the verb? Either the enemies are digging the author's grave - but then what are the hands and feet doing there? Or are the hands and feet doing the digging - is the author digging a hole for himself (whether to hide in or to burry himself in - continuing the death imagery from verses 15-16).

OTOH a lion is mentioned in verse 14 as a metaphor for the enemies, so this might tie in with verse 17, though the sentence structure still isn't entirely clear to me.

Chris Weimer

Actually, I can only claim proficiency in the first two. My Hebrew is only backed up by morphological tagging to help me along. I'm learning it still, but I'm no expert.

My Hebrew unicode works surprisingly well for me. I'll mess with the language options later. I do know the verse in question, being one of my favorites, so I don't need yours to be perfect, since I have it at home.

And as for the standard transliteration, they should be fairly obvious, with few exceptions: )BGDHVZX+YKLMNS(PCQR$T - right?

Phlox Pyros

I'm confused. From what you wrote, it seems as if you are saying that K)RW / KRW was possibly corrupted into K)RY... If that is what you meant to write, then it sounds as if you are saying that "pierced" KRW became "like a lion" K)RY.

The issue is definitely not settled and probably never will be, but there are good scholars who suggest the "pierced" reading. What did you think of the article Praxeus presented? It is an excellent article where you can see the text. Dr. Peter Flint is one of those mentioned in respect to the "pierced" reading. Are you familiar with Dr. Flint and his expertise in the DSS? I hope I'm not coming across facetious, I am sincerely curious. What about the scholars I mentioned earlier...Abegg, etc.?

I do not remember what Tov wrote on this issue. I will have to check when my books are in front of me.

As to the aleph in K)RW, could it not be a matres lectionis? The DSS and older Hebrew texts were known for inserting vowels like this.

One last thing to keep in mind is that those thousands of Hebrew manuscripts that read "like a lion" are from around 1000 A.D. and up to our time. The Greek Septuagint is older, as are the DSS, obviously. In fact, I'm not sure that any of the DSS read K)RY. Do they? Which ones, if so?

Also, I am truly curious about Joe's assertion about the elongated yods. I want to know where this comes from.

Loomis

The speaker in Psalm 22 could be Yammu (the worm dragon of the sea). It could be his death cry as he is being slain by Baal.

Yammu was a son of El. When Baal was in the underworld Yammu was the god in charge. But when Baal returned, the people derided him and Baal defeated him. Yammu was sent back to the underworld where he vowed revenge.

Chris Weimer

Yes, you read me correctly. The original is probably pierced, not like a lion.

I forgot to mention this - this is also correct. The spelling in the scrolls is not as uniform as the Masoretic text is.

Sorry for the apparent confusion.