Cege

The OT book of 1 Samuel presents a lot of questions, both theological and historical, to me as I'm involved in an expository Bible study once a week. I hope scholars and non-scholars here will follow along with me, and help to answer questions I present from my skeptical point of view.

To begin, in Chapt 3, last verse, it says that God came to the place where young Samuel was sleeping, that God stood there, and spoke to Samuel. Does that imply that God took human form in order to stand in Samuel's presence?

Also, Samuel was sleeping in the tent temple, in the presence of the Ark. Was God supposed to be invisibly inhabiting the space between the cherubim atop the ark at that time?

Does the Hebrew indicate that God removed himself from the ark or the space above it, then stood before Samuel to speak to Samuel?

Doug Shaver

Are you trying to figure out what the author was thinking? Or are you asking what actually happened?

Cege

I'm trying to figure out what the author was attempting to describe. Does the text suggest God taking an invisible human form in order to be able to stand in Samuel's presence?

The burning bush and the cloud appearances from 350 years previous didn't 'appear' invisible and stand to speak.

Toto

There are many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures where God has a body. The idea of God as an ethereal spiritual entity is a later development. There was a recent thread here, I think, and there are some bible quotes from Christians on the subject here and from the Skeptics Annotaded Bible here.

On the other hand, this passage could easily refer to a vision or an auditory appearance.

1 Sam 3:21 The LORD continued to appear at Shiloh, and there he revealed himself to Samuel through his word.

But I don't think that the Hebrew Bible has a concept of God as a shape shifter or "taking on" a body. There are passages where God is a very large, powerful person, and others where he is a spirit, written in a different time and from a different mindset.

I would be interested in hearing how your pastor explains all this.

Clouseau

The Hebrew yawtsab does not necessarily mean standing on feet, but 'stationing' oneself, or 'presenting' oneself. There is no indication that God moved from the ark or its vicinity. The menorah lamp 'not yet put out' was a more explicit indication of God's presence. It was anciently believed that performing sacrifices and sleeping overnight in a temple could result in revelatory dreams, a process known as incubation. This event could be looked on as an incubation of an unwitting sort.

The only sense that Samuel seems to have used was auditory, if indeed he used any of his senses. Verse 15 mentions a vision, so Samuel may have 'heard' the voice in a dream, 'hearing' the voice as from a distance, then as if from someone at the foot of the bed. Auditory message dreams (that could awake the dreamer) were counted as visions. Otoh, Samuel may have been awake throughout, but heard, not seen.

Cege

My pastor isn't addressing this book currently, but my SS teacher is. He's pointed out that in Exodus there's an incident where Moses is allowed to see the "hindquarters" of God in the cleft of a rock instead of Moses' request to see God's face. This does not present a good visual for me!

Exodus 25 has God describing the description of and the dimensions for the ark of the covenant that was to be built. Once it was built, God said he'd meet between the cherubim atop the ark to speak with Moses. God wasn't in the box but dwelt above the box between the golden cherubim figures.

After Moses died, whatever high priest approached the ark to communicate with God had to shield his eyes from the divine light that was God's presence.

No bright divine light that Samuel needed to shield his eyes from is described in 1 Samuel. It seems that the writer of 1 Samuel didn't mean to indicate any bright light but only a voice--and that voice heard only by Samuel. Yet there's a figure indicated with feet that "stood" before Samuel.

How was Samuel able to determine that God "stood" before him invisibly rather than hovering between the cherubim invisibly as God had supposedly been doing for the roughly 350 years between Moses and Samuel? Is "standing" some reference back to man being created in God's image, as claimed in Genesis?

Baalazel

From the very beginning God seems to have taken physical form when it suited him.

Gen. 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day..."

Spirits do not walk in gardens. Nor do they make clothes from skins, v21.

When the text says God appears in physical form it is best to take the simplest meaning.

Baal

Cege

Do you think the author of Genesis meant to indicate that God was in a visible form in the garden? If so, wouldn't that contradict elsewhere that indicates that no one could see God and live? (OT only, since if Jesus was God in the NT, he was seen by tons of folk)

If God was in physical form in 1 Samuel, appearing to Samuel, why would Samuel think it was Eli speaking to him from another room rather than God speaking to him in the same room?

-Jay-

The "J" source has several instances of a very anthropomorphic God, presented in a very matter-of-fact way (i.e. God interacting directly is presented as an everyday occurance).

There's an evolution in the sources that generally moves towards a more remote and distant God. (Although the whole "showing of the backparts" bit just seems, well, freaky...)

regards,

NinJay

Baalazel

The text clearly says God walked in the garden. I think the most reasonable reading is that God was present in physical form.

As to the contradiction that rises from it do you think there is no contradiction?

Baal