Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 03-28-2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

If we can't even agree on what we mean by the term "historical Jesus," then how can we have an intelligent discussion about it?

There is no "historical Jesus". For that term to mean anything at all you need historical evidence to support it. You don't have any.

The relevant question is: Did Jesus Exist? And that is the title of Ehrman's book. He seeks to present an argument for historicity - that's all he can do - present an argument. And arguments are not evidence for a "historical Jesus".

Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth (or via: amazon.co.uk) Bart Ehrman

And no - I don't have the book and have no intention of wasting my money or my time on reading it.

Steve Weiss · 03-28-2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

....Remember, you're not voting for what you personally believe about Jesus, you're voting for what you think would be a fair definition of Jesus.

You should know that the "definition" and "description" are NOT the same.

The term historical Jesus refers to a human Jesus.

The Quest for an historical Jesus merely means that people are trying to find an historical Jesus [a human Jesus] AFTER establishing that Jesus of the NT is DIVINE or a Jesus of Faith , in effect, a Myth.

ALL Divine figures are considered Mythological.

And, here is where it becomes so illogical and absurd for HJers.

In order to find an Historical Jesus, in order to find any person, dead or alive, one MUST have an established credible DESCRIPTION of the person being sort BEFORE the SEARCH begins.

HJers have been looking for an HJ without a known established description because they have effectively Discredited the very description of Jesus in the NT.

Let me give an example.

The NT contains the names of many characters--there is Pilate the Governor of Judea under Tiberius and there is Gabriel the angel that was sent to the city of Galilee.

In order to SEARCH for an historical Pilate or Gabriel I must use the very same description that were found in the NT.

There is a figure of history described as Pontius Pilate, governor of Judea, during the reign of Tiberius in the writings of Philo and Josephus but no figure of history known as Gabriel the angel.

It would have been completely illogical to attempt to look for Pilate the Obscure Preacher or Gabriel the itinerant prophet when there are no such characters described in the NT.

HJers are looking for a Jesus for whom they have NO known established description.

Each person looking for Jesus have their OWN imagined description

This is most odd.

I am looking at a poster --It says "Wanted Dead or Alive--an Historical Jesus"--but there is NO Photo and NO description.

An historical Jesus will NEVER ever be found because HJers do NOT know who they are looking for.

This last sentence is true of alleged deities in general, not just for the Christian man/god

steve_bnk · 03-28-2012, 08:00 AM

HJ refers to a possible real flesh and blood non divine human who was the source for the character in the gospels.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-28-2012, 08:00 AM

Evidence has nothing to do with my intent here. I'm not asking what IS historical, or what can be proven, I'm just asking for a working definition of "Jesus." It's purely a hypothetical.

Vorkosigan · 03-28-2012, 08:04 AM

Minimally

1 -- crucified
2 -- identified by some group of believers as the Messiah, who then carried the Word out into the world.

maryhelena · 03-28-2012, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Evidence has nothing to do with my intent here. I'm not asking what IS historical, or what can be proven, I'm just asking for a working definition of "Jesus." It's purely a hypothetical.

Great! Nice to see you dropped the "historical" as a term to apply to the gospel JC when there is no evidence to do so. So - on with the hypothetical debate as to what a flesh and blood gospel JC might look like.....

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-28-2012, 08:50 AM

I'm not asking a question about the Jesus of the Gospels.

Are you excluding the possibility that a historical figure can lie behind the myth, or are you saying that a non-supernatural historical figure cannot be called "Historical Jesus."

dog-on · 03-28-2012, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I'm not asking a question about the Jesus of the Gospels.

Are you excluding the possibility that a historical figure can lie behind the myth, or are you saying that a non-supernatural historical figure cannot be called "Historical Jesus."

Then you just need to define the historical Jesus on a pole, not with a poll...

steve_bnk · 03-28-2012, 08:56 AM

The poll may be skewed by thesists.

For me an HJ refers to a non divine human. HUavging options for the suoernatiral doesn't seem to make sense.

I'd see the quistion as

Given a non divine HJ, what is believable from the gosples and what would a profile of an HJ look like.

aa5874 · 03-28-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I'm not asking a question about the Jesus of the Gospels.

Are you excluding the possibility that a historical figure can lie behind the myth, or are you saying that a non-supernatural historical figure cannot be called "Historical Jesus."

You are looking for an Hypothetical Jesus!!!

There is ONLY one Jesus in the Canon, the Non-historical Jesus, the Divine Jesus, the Jesus of Faith--Myth Jesus.

Any other Jesus outside the Canon is Hypothetical Jesus with no established credible description.

View Poll Results: Check off everything you would need to see to say a guy was a "Historical Jesus."
God	1	2.63%
Resurrection	3	7.89%
Healed miraculously and drove out real demons	3	7.89%
Was a conventional (non-supernatural) faith healer and exorcist, but did not do miracles	13	34.21%
Performed nature miracles such as walking on water	3	7.89%
Was born of a virgin	2	5.26%
Said all or most of what is attributed to him in the Gospels	4	10.53%
Said at least some of what is attributed to him in the Gospels	21	55.26%
Believed himself to be God	2	5.26%
Believed himself to be the Messiah	5	13.16%
Was believed by his followers to be God	1	2.63%
Was believed by his followers to be the Messiah	16	42.11%
Was involved in some kind of attack on the Temple	9	23.68%
Was crucified	27	71.05%
Was from Nazareth	8	21.05%
Was from Galilee	12	31.58%
Had 12 disciples	3	7.89%
Had some disciples, not necessarily 12	25	65.79%
Raised the dead	2	5.26%
Was believed by his disciples to still be alive somehow after the crucifixion.	17	44.74%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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03-28-2012, 08:00 AM	#23
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	HJ refers to a possible real flesh and blood non divine human who was the source for the character in the gospels.

03-28-2012, 08:00 AM	#24
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Evidence has nothing to do with my intent here. I'm not asking what IS historical, or what can be proven, I'm just asking for a working definition of "Jesus." It's purely a hypothetical.

03-28-2012, 08:04 AM	#25
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Minimally 1 -- crucified 2 -- identified by some group of believers as the Messiah, who then carried the Word out into the world.

03-28-2012, 08:50 AM	#27
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I'm not asking a question about the Jesus of the Gospels. Are you excluding the possibility that a historical figure can lie behind the myth, or are you saying that a non-supernatural historical figure cannot be called "Historical Jesus."

03-28-2012, 08:56 AM	#29
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	The poll may be skewed by thesists. For me an HJ refers to a non divine human. HUavging options for the suoernatiral doesn't seem to make sense. I'd see the quistion as Given a non divine HJ, what is believable from the gosples and what would a profile of an HJ look like.

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