Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 04-20-2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trendkill

No violent interpretation of the passage that makes any sense has been offered.

What doesn't make sense about a command that will be given at the Final Judgment?

Rev. Timothy G. Muse · 04-20-2005, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Thank you for clarifying this biblical passage. If I understand you correctly, god ordered this killing to see if Abraham would carry out the order--which god knew beforehand that he would.

However, god has now changed his mind, and will never again ask anyone to kill anyone else as a test.

Your answer is appreciated.

Christians today believe God's test of Abraham served as an example to us in that we are to obey God and trust that he can fulfill his promises even if at the time we do not understand how.

I would not say that "God changed his mind", but tested Abraham up to the point of testing his faith, but knew all along that he would provide for it to be stopped before actually being carried out.

Finally, Christians today look to God's revealed word for guidance, and do not believe God manifests himself today in the same way that he did to Abraham.

Rev. Timothy G. Muse · 04-20-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The tagline of these parables is always intended to represent a statement by God (or Jesus) to the audience. In this case, the statement is "kill my enemies." You can't jettison that statement - and the specific imperative form of that statement - just because you don't like it.

Hey, Jesus is supposed to have said a lot of crazy things. he also said to hate your mother and father. Why should we be surprised or expect moral consistency? Sometimes he makes sense, sometimes he raves.

When Jesus says "to hate your mother and father", he is not saying we should 'literally' hate our mother and father, but that we should not allow anything or anyone stand in between us and him.

For example, if my members have family members that are trying to get them do something they shouldn't, they should put their relationship with Christ and their obedience to him over their relationship to their own family members.

Read this verse in context, and it means something completely different than you have assigned it. (No wonder some people think Jesus said alot of crazy things, they don't understand what he was actually saying.)

Visionary7 · 04-20-2005, 07:29 PM

No.

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-20-2005, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

When Jesus says "to hate your mother and father", he is not saying we should 'literally' hate our mother and father, but that we should not allow anything or anyone stand in between us and him.

For example, if my members have family members that are trying to get them do something they shouldn't, they should put their relationship with Christ and their obedience to him over their relationship to their own family members.

Read this verse in context, and it means something completely different than you have assigned it. (No wonder some people think Jesus said alot of crazy things, they don't understand what he was actually saying.)

I understand the meaning and I was being somewhat facetious. My greater point in this thread is that it is just as possible to willfully read the Bible as advocating violence and ignore the interpretations of Christians as it is to do it with the Koran. Both books can be read as advocating violence if one really wants to and both religions have explanations/interpretations/apologia for those passages which indicate the opposite.

I've been trying a bit of Devil's advocacy in this thread to try to illustrate that point. Any Christian who wants to claim their sacred literature has any moral high ground on the Koran coming from a selective and biased perspective.

sMacK · 04-20-2005, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli

No where in the New Testament are Christians ordered to kill.

The whole of the New Testament can be summed up in the phrase "love one another as I have loved you"

As far as the argument you are involved in obviously many heinous things have been done by so called Christians through out the ages. But Jesus never killed anyone or whished anyone killed.

Mohamed on the other hand did kill and advocated killing under certain circumstances. But that is not to say that there are not good and decent Muslims in the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sMacK

Jesus on the other hand did not kill and did not advocate killing under any circumstances. But that is not to say that there are not bad and indecent Christians in the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

Wrong. You are mistaken. "He" advocated killing.

Yes, I understand. I was woefully trying to point out a thrust of the sword as this was in response to Eli's comment about the Muslim faith.

I should have said:
Eli-
And would you also say that Jesus on the other hand did not kill...

I sometimes forget that y'all caint see my mind thinkin.

John A. Broussard · 04-20-2005, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

When Jesus says "to hate your mother and father", he is not saying we should 'literally' hate our mother and father,

Christian interpretations of their own scriptures are a wonder to behold. Now "hate" doesn't mean "hate."

It must be very difficult to carry on a conversation with someone who can simply deny that the words you use are the words you use.

Rev. Timothy G. Muse · 04-21-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I understand the meaning and I was being somewhat facetious. My greater point in this thread is that it is just as possible to willfully read the Bible as advocating violence and ignore the interpretations of Christians as it is to do it with the Koran. Both books can be read as advocating violence if one really wants to and both religions have explanations/interpretations/apologia for those passages which indicate the opposite.

I've been trying a bit of Devil's advocacy in this thread to try to illustrate that point. ...

I accept this (that people CAN and sometimes do read into it what they want). Thanks.

Rev. Timothy G. Muse · 04-21-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Christian interpretations of their own scriptures are a wonder to behold. Now "hate" doesn't mean "hate."

It must be very difficult to carry on a conversation with someone who can simply deny that the words you use are the words you use.

Context. Context. Context!
Scripture interpret Scripture.

Matthew 10:37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

TySixtus · 04-21-2005, 08:09 AM

Hey Reverend, can you explain the 'context' of my earlier post concerning scriptures ordering people to kill other people for, among other things, being gay and worshipping other gods besides Yahweh?

I mean, when god orders you to kill gays... in what 'context' is this okay?

Ty

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04-20-2005, 07:29 PM	#124
Visionary7 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: -World Forum (Int'l)- Posts: 712	No.

04-21-2005, 08:09 AM	#130
TySixtus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rachacha NY Posts: 4,219	Hey Reverend, can you explain the 'context' of my earlier post concerning scriptures ordering people to kill other people for, among other things, being gay and worshipping other gods besides Yahweh? I mean, when god orders you to kill gays... in what 'context' is this okay? Ty

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