Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SarraceniaScott · 04-16-2005, 01:16 PM

I'm no bibical scholar, so I am looking for somebody who can cite a reference.

On another site I frequent, the argument was made that the Koran orders its followers to kill infidels, and that the bible does not.

This argument was made to support the thesis that it is NOT poverty and desperation driving islamic fundamentalists to kill -- it is their religion, and if they were christians, they wouldn't be doing it.

I argued that if the middle east were as wealthy as the west, you wouldn't be seeing terrorism as the problem it is today.

Can anybody answer this question for me, with references to relevant portions of holy texts?

Thanks!

TheBigKahoona · 04-16-2005, 01:50 PM

In the old testament God orders israelites to do extremely violent actions. However, the message of the new testament is much more pacifistic (Is that a word????

) i.e. turn the other cheek etc...

Toto · 04-16-2005, 02:47 PM

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

ETA just a comment on the OP: Christianity was at least as violent as modern Islam is certain phases of its development. But I don't think you can blame this on poverty or scripture. The middle east today is the seat of vast wealth from oil. But what is done with that? The Saudi's have taken their oil money and financed fundamentalist obscurantist madrassas who have promoted one particular reading of Islam.

Eli · 04-16-2005, 03:35 PM

No where in the New Testament are Christians ordered to kill.

The whole of the New Testament can be summed up in the phrase "love one another as I have loved you"

As far as the argument you are involved in obviously many heinous things have been done by so called Christians through out the ages. But Jesus never killed anyone or whished anyone killed.

Mohamed on the other hand did kill and advocated killing under certain circumstances. But that is not to say that there are not good and decent Muslims in the world.

Amaleq13 · 04-16-2005, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli

No where in the New Testament are Christians ordered to kill.

Then what is your explanation for the verse cited in the post just previous to yours?

trendkill · 04-16-2005, 05:06 PM

Luke 19 is a parable. It's not Jesus ordering his followers around. Yes, the character who says the line in the parable represents God, but it looks more like an end-times metaphor than an order for humans to kill each other.

Toto · 04-16-2005, 05:38 PM

I don't see this. Luke 19 contains a parable, told in the 3rd person (he said. . .) Jesus finishes with the parable and reveals the moral, taking the point of the parable and turning it into a universal generalization:

Quote:

For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

.

That's I say unto you. Then Jesus says:

Quote:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

which bears no relationship to the parable about a nobleman with three servants.

trendkill · 04-16-2005, 06:08 PM

It was still the nobleman from the parable talking to his servants who said those things. The characters in the parable speak in the first person.

Here's the beginning of the parable:

Quote:

He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this [man] to reign over us.

These are the people who refused the lord's reign, the ones that were ordered executed at the end. They're characters in the parable. Obviously, Jesus did not tell the rich man in the tree to execute fictional characters.

Eli · 04-16-2005, 06:16 PM

Jesus was speaking in a parable that has to do with the final judgment of mankind. You will be happy to know that what the parable means is that those who have knowledge of God and misuse it or waste it on their own selfish wants are going to be judge the harshest in the End.

The final reference at the end of the parable the part that says

“ But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.�?

Means this

He was speaking of His place in the final Judgment where he will judge the quick and the dead.

This Parable that Jesus spoke about His final Judgement of mankind is not a command for Christians to kill although I am sure that some evil people over the years have interpreted it that way and used it for there own justification.

Toto · 04-16-2005, 06:26 PM

Sp who says "For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him?" That sounds like someone standing outside the parable, who has finished the story and is drawing a lesson. Why would you think that the next sentence steps back inside the parable?

And if this is part of the parable, then slaying those who rejected the rule applies both to the Lord and to Jesus. Saying that it will happen in the next world scarcely makes it nicer.

04-16-2005, 01:16 PM	#1
SarraceniaScott Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 389	Does the bible anywhere order Christians to kill? I'm no bibical scholar, so I am looking for somebody who can cite a reference. On another site I frequent, the argument was made that the Koran orders its followers to kill infidels, and that the bible does not. This argument was made to support the thesis that it is NOT poverty and desperation driving islamic fundamentalists to kill -- it is their religion, and if they were christians, they wouldn't be doing it. I argued that if the middle east were as wealthy as the west, you wouldn't be seeing terrorism as the problem it is today. Can anybody answer this question for me, with references to relevant portions of holy texts? Thanks!

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04-16-2005, 01:50 PM	#2
TheBigKahoona Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 171	In the old testament God orders israelites to do extremely violent actions. However, the message of the new testament is much more pacifistic (Is that a word???? ) i.e. turn the other cheek etc...

04-16-2005, 02:47 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. ETA just a comment on the OP: Christianity was at least as violent as modern Islam is certain phases of its development. But I don't think you can blame this on poverty or scripture. The middle east today is the seat of vast wealth from oil. But what is done with that? The Saudi's have taken their oil money and financed fundamentalist obscurantist madrassas who have promoted one particular reading of Islam.

04-16-2005, 03:35 PM	#4
Eli Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The united States Posts: 8	No where in the New Testament are Christians ordered to kill. The whole of the New Testament can be summed up in the phrase "love one another as I have loved you" As far as the argument you are involved in obviously many heinous things have been done by so called Christians through out the ages. But Jesus never killed anyone or whished anyone killed. Mohamed on the other hand did kill and advocated killing under certain circumstances. But that is not to say that there are not good and decent Muslims in the world.

04-16-2005, 05:06 PM	#6
trendkill Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Northern California Posts: 7,558	Luke 19 is a parable. It's not Jesus ordering his followers around. Yes, the character who says the line in the parable represents God, but it looks more like an end-times metaphor than an order for humans to kill each other.

04-16-2005, 06:16 PM	#9
Eli Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The united States Posts: 8	Jesus was speaking in a parable that has to do with the final judgment of mankind. You will be happy to know that what the parable means is that those who have knowledge of God and misuse it or waste it on their own selfish wants are going to be judge the harshest in the End. The final reference at the end of the parable the part that says “ But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.�? Means this He was speaking of His place in the final Judgment where he will judge the quick and the dead. This Parable that Jesus spoke about His final Judgement of mankind is not a command for Christians to kill although I am sure that some evil people over the years have interpreted it that way and used it for there own justification.

04-16-2005, 06:26 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Sp who says "For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him?" That sounds like someone standing outside the parable, who has finished the story and is drawing a lesson. Why would you think that the next sentence steps back inside the parable? And if this is part of the parable, then slaying those who rejected the rule applies both to the Lord and to Jesus. Saying that it will happen in the next world scarcely makes it nicer.

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