Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 09-21-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I've said all along, "The Euphrates river running dry is a sign of the times".

The Euphrates is losing massive amounts of water.

But how many other rivers have receded a lot, or dried up completely, over the past 2,000 years? What is unusual about a river receding a lot, or drying up completely?

premjan · 09-21-2009, 11:05 AM

The Saraswati drying up was the cause of the decline of the Indus Valley Civilization. Even North America has an urban settlement that is ca. 3500BC.
http://arthistorynewsletter.com/blog/?p=671

Johnny Skeptic · 09-21-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The rebirth of Israel foretold by the Bible.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Genesis 17:1-8

1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4. As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Obviously, the partition of Palestine in 1948 was not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy since verse 8 says "all of the land of Canaan." From 1948 through today, the Jews have not occupied and/or controlled anywhere near all of the land of Canaan, and certainly not as an everlasting possession since there is not any historical evidence that Hebrews have ever occupied all of the land of Canaan.

The words "everlasting possession" surely indicated to ancient Hebrews that their descendants would have all of Canaan as an everlasting possession for many generations in this life, certainly not in a future life. If these are the end times, as you believe is the case, there will not be enough time for Jews to have Canaan as a possession for many generations, especially since Jews must have "all" of the land of Canaan in order to fulfill Genesis 17:8.

You should acquaint yourself with the issue of "self-fulfilled" prophecies. One link that discusses self-fulfilled prophecies is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy. Consider the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior. Although examples of such prophecies can be found in literature as far back as ancient Greece and ancient India, it is 20th-century sociologist Robert K. Merton who is credited with coining the expression "self-fulfilling prophecy" and formalizing its structure and consequences. In his book Social Theory and Social Structure, Merton gives as a feature of the self-fulfilling prophecy: Ie: when Roxanna falsely believes that her marriage will fail and fears such failure will occur that it actually causes the marriage to fail.

"The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning."

In other words, a prophecy declared as truth when it is actually false may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the once-false prophecy.

Logically, all that it takes to self-fulfill a prophecy is desire, and sufficient power. That is just simple common sense. If you predicted that you would go to school on Monday, and you went to school on Monday, all that it took for you to "fulfill" your prediction was desire and sufficient power, which you had, and certainly not supernatural power.

Regarding the Partition of Palestine in 1948, as far as I recall, the vote was 33nations for the partition, and 13 nations against the partition. Regarding the 33 nations that voted for the partition, every government except for one government, the Russian government, was predominantly Christian, in other words, a stacked deck based upon the Bible, and of the 13 nations that voted against the partition, only one government, the Greek government, was predominantly Christian, but according to one source that I forget, only a nominally Christian government.

No rational person would claim that religious based bias and military power did not have anything to do with the Partition of Palestine in 1948.

In your opinion, how many failed Bible prophecies should it take to discredit the Bible? One interesting failed Bible prophecy is where Ezekiel falsely claimed that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. Another is where the author of Genesis falsely predicted that a global flood would occur.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-21-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

But how many other rivers have receded a lot, or dried up completely, over the past 2,000 years? What is unusual about a river receding a lot, or drying up completely?

I'm sure lots of rivers have dried up in the past. But honestly, I'm not too concerned with them. And what is unusual about the Euphrates? It's the birthplace of human life, and once it runs dry, John said that will be the return of Christ.

What we are witnessing right now is the Euphrates running dry..

The bowls are being poured onto the earth, and God is setting the stage for Armageddon!!!

premjan · 09-21-2009, 11:08 AM

Oh you think Eden was by the Euphrates.

Keith&Co. · 09-21-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Oh you think Eden was by the Euphrates.

The Books does say that. But it never says if the rivers so named in Genesis were the same rivers after The Flood.

Of course, if i was worried about the symbolic value of the start of human life, the Nile makes a much better candidate for drying up and signaling the end of life on the planet.

premjan · 09-21-2009, 11:14 AM

There are many candidates for Saraswati river - as the Aryans migrated they named the largest local river the Saraswati. I'm not sure who was responsible for the name Euphrates and whether they did much migrating, but it is possible the Edenic Euphrates is not the same as the current one (can we identify it by all Biblical landmarks)?
http://ldolphin.org/eden/
But it seems reasonable to say that there were a Pison and Gihon that have now dried up. The AmuDarya/Syrdarya have shifted course a lot and even dried up on occasion so this is normal. Actually I find the Okavango fascinating because it disappears as a desert wetland. It might be better for all of our future water scarcities if we did this to all rivers (loss of navigability would be an issue).

IBelieveInHymn · 09-21-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

So, you MEANT to say that SOME of the water is gone. That's not what you said.

You can research all of my posts if you want. I've said "the river is drying up" and "the water is evaporated". I never said the entire river is gone.

Quote:

So, you MEANT to say "Yes, when the Euphrates is flowing at greater capacity once again," That's not what you said.

I know the entire river has not dried up yet, because Christ has not returned. :Cheeky:

Quote:

You've said, all along, that the river HAS EVAPORATED, and IS DRY. Not drier, not evaporating, not lowering.... You've said that the sign for the end times HAS BEEN RECEIVED. Not that we're very, very close to getting the sign as was prophecized.

No, I didn't say the entire river has evaporated. I said "the water in the river has evaporated". It's losing massive amounts of water.

Quote:

Yes, you really have. Maybe not in your own mind, but you have.

I think you need to read a little more carefully.

Quote:

Well, that one made no sense at all. The cost of the dam, the time spent making it, as an answer to whether or not water will run through it? What did you even mean by that.

Do you really think Turkey or Syria will allow the dam to release water?

Quote:

John didn't foretell dwindle. He said gone. You said fulfilled.

And if you research my posts, I've said, "It's happening", meaning, the prophecy is fulfilled.

Quote:

I don't have to debunk the prophecy. I'm debunking your repeated claims that it's fullfilled. It ain't, and it looks like it won't be.
As always, and i do mean each and every time, the claim that the world is ending or about to end have fallen flat.

It's happening as we speak.. Book of Revelation said the Angels will pour out the bowls on the Euphrates. And it's beginning to dry up.. as foretold 2000 years ago.

Quote:

Dates have been given and passed. People have waited and gone home embarrassed. The Faithful have preached and speeched and then had to move because of the taunts when it failed to come to pass.
If and only if this one time 'my little plan' to live life as if such claims are worthless and we have to plan for tomorrow, falls flat, there won't be much to say.

Yes, I agree.. People have claimed the end of the world would happen on a certain date. When Clearly Jesus said No one knows when the end will come... but watch for these signs. Well, I'm witnessing one of the signs of the times.

Quote:

You, the believers, will finally have outlived the scorn and taunts you faced every year for the last two thousand, when the world just runs along without paying much heed to cries of doom and gloom.

I'm not too concerned about people from 1,500 years ago claiming the end was near. If they knew the bible, they would have known Israel was not reborn as a nation yet. And the leader of Christianity said, 'No one knows of that Hour or Day".

I can't explain why people have claimed the end is near for the past 2000 years. They should have paid closer attention to Jesus' words..

premjan · 09-21-2009, 11:21 AM

Interesting how people buy these prophecies after so many years - as I understand it, the purpose of prophecy was to keep the prophet's stomach filled without manual labor.

Johnny Skeptic · 09-21-2009, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Euphrates river running dry is a sign of the end times.

Nope, there are serious water shortages in other parts of the world too, and I doubt that very many scientists are claiming that that is due to the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Consider the following:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...22/water.china

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randeep Ramesh

Monday 22 January 2007

World is running out of water, says UN adviser

The world is running out of water.......according to Jeffrey Sachs, director of the UN's Millennium Project.

Professor Sachs, who is credited with sparking pop star Bono's crusade for African development, told an environment conference in Delhi that the world simply had "no more rivers to take water from".

The breadbaskets of India and China were facing severe water shortages and neither Asian giant could use the same strategies for increasing food production that has fed millions in the last few decades.

"In 2050 we will have 9 billion people and average income will be four times what it is today. India and China have been able to feed their populations because they use water in an unsustainable way. That is no longer possible," he said.

Since Asia's green revolution, which began in the 1960s and saw a transformation of agricultural production, the amount of land under irrigation has tripled. However, many parts of the continent have reached the limits of their water supplies. "The Ganges [in India] and the Yellow river [in China] no longer flow. There is so much silting up and water extraction upstream they are pretty stagnant," said Prof Sachs.

The US academic said that the mechanisms of shrinking water resources are not well understood. "We need to do for water what we did for climate change. How do we recharge aquifers? What about ground water use? There's no policy anywhere in place at the moment."

The US academic said that the rise of Asia was altering the world's resources in an unprecedented way - for the first time humans were shaping the environment rather than nature.

You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-21-2009, 11:05 AM	#32
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	The Saraswati drying up was the cause of the decline of the Indus Valley Civilization. Even North America has an urban settlement that is ca. 3500BC. http://arthistorynewsletter.com/blog/?p=671

09-21-2009, 11:08 AM	#35
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Oh you think Eden was by the Euphrates.

09-21-2009, 11:14 AM	#37
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	There are many candidates for Saraswati river - as the Aryans migrated they named the largest local river the Saraswati. I'm not sure who was responsible for the name Euphrates and whether they did much migrating, but it is possible the Edenic Euphrates is not the same as the current one (can we identify it by all Biblical landmarks)? http://ldolphin.org/eden/ But it seems reasonable to say that there were a Pison and Gihon that have now dried up. The AmuDarya/Syrdarya have shifted course a lot and even dried up on occasion so this is normal. Actually I find the Okavango fascinating because it disappears as a desert wetland. It might be better for all of our future water scarcities if we did this to all rivers (loss of navigability would be an issue).

09-21-2009, 11:21 AM	#39
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Interesting how people buy these prophecies after so many years - as I understand it, the purpose of prophecy was to keep the prophet's stomach filled without manual labor.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.