Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-28-2008, 06:59 AM

Revelation

Quote:

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Is this literally true?

William · 03-30-2008, 10:21 AM

maybe this will see more action over in BC&H. Movin it on over...

J.F. Gaul · 03-30-2008, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Is this literally true?

No, it's a metaphor for "There's a sucker born every minute."

aa5874 · 03-30-2008, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Revelation

Quote:

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Is this literally true?

Yes, it's a real dream.

Nero's Boot · 03-30-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Revelation

Is this literally true?

Yes, it's a real dream.

Or a really good trip, thanks to hallucinagenic substances.

--it certainly reads like someone ate a bit too many 'shrooms NB

MrFungus420 · 03-30-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is this literally true?

No.

Let's look at one verse in particular:

"6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

What do you think would be left of the Earth if the stars literally fell to the Earth?

It is just another example of people who were nearly totally ignorant about anything beyond their physical grasp.

To them, the stars were just lights in the sky, not huge balls of nuclear fusion millions upon millions upon millions of miles distant.

spin · 03-30-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFungus420

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is this literally true?

No.

Let's look at one verse in particular:

"6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

What do you think would be left of the Earth if the stars literally fell to the Earth?

It is just another example of people who were nearly totally ignorant about anything beyond their physical grasp.

To them, the stars were just lights in the sky, not huge balls of nuclear fusion millions upon millions upon millions of miles distant.

One might like to consider a well observed regular occurrence in the night sky on certain evenings of the year: meteor showers. What would be the difference to the naked eye between a "fixed star" and a "falling star" (obviously other than the latter's movement)? The observable meteor shower surely would share a generic similarity in spread to the way a strong wind would cause figs to fall. The specific event of the shower would then have been generalized to all the stars.

This is not a comment on the OP's question, but an approach to understanding the intentions of the image.

spin

Zenaphobe · 03-30-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Revelation

Quote:

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Is this literally true?

When I was a fundie, the dispensationalists books I read interpreted this as a nuclear war, that the sky rolls when a nuke strikes and people hide away in shelters to survive the fallout.

Baalazel · 03-30-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFungus420

No.

Let's look at one verse in particular:

"6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

What do you think would be left of the Earth if the stars literally fell to the Earth?

It is just another example of people who were nearly totally ignorant about anything beyond their physical grasp.

To them, the stars were just lights in the sky, not huge balls of nuclear fusion millions upon millions upon millions of miles distant.

One might like to consider a well observed regular occurrence in the night sky on certain evenings of the year: meteor showers. What would be the difference to the naked eye between a "fixed star" and a "falling star" (obviously other than the latter's movement)? The observable meteor shower surely would share a generic similarity in spread to the way a strong wind would cause figs to fall. The specific event of the shower would then have been generalized to all the stars.

This is not a comment on the OP's question, but an approach to understanding the intentions of the image.

spin

Why should it not be that the intent is as the text puts it? The stars of heaven fall to earth. It is after all apocalyptic literature. Regardless of what the author thought the stars were I see no reason to think he could not conceive of them falling.

Baal

spin · 03-30-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalazel

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

One might like to consider a well observed regular occurrence in the night sky on certain evenings of the year: meteor showers. What would be the difference to the naked eye between a "fixed star" and a "falling star" (obviously other than the latter's movement)? The observable meteor shower surely would share a generic similarity in spread to the way a strong wind would cause figs to fall. The specific event of the shower would then have been generalized to all the stars.

This is not a comment on the OP's question, but an approach to understanding the intentions of the image.

Why should it not be that the intent is as the text puts it? The stars of heaven fall to earth. It is after all apocalyptic literature. Regardless of what the author thought the stars were I see no reason to think he could not conceive of them falling.

Sure why not? Thing is, we usually use analogies and metaphors to construct new ideas. That's why I mentioned meteor showers, which have the appearance of some stars falling.

spin

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03-30-2008, 10:21 AM	#2
William Moderator - NAR Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Northern Japan Posts: 2,312	maybe this will see more action over in BC&H. Movin it on over...

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