Diogenes the Cynic

What happened to Biblical Jerusalem? What happened to ancient Rome? What happened to 10th Century Paris? What happened to 17th Century Salem, Massachusettes? have all those cities been "destroyed and never rebuilt?" None of them have the same physical structure that they had even a couple of centuries ago. Cities are not defined by their buildings.

The fact is that the island city of Tyre has been in continuous existence since Ezekiel's wishful "prophecy." Whether the buildings are the same is no more relevant than if St. Petersburgh, Florida is composed of the same buildings as it was 400 years ago. By your logic, NO city can be said to have been in continuous existence for more than a century or so (or however long it takes for there to be a complete turnover in infrastructure).

You should really give it up. You aren't convincing anybody of anything, you're just making yourself look more desperate with every page.

Richbee

It's occupied and inhabited largely by Jews.

It is ruled and occupied by Romans or modern Italians.

Occupied by who?

Ruled by who?

Nebbie? Persians? Greeks? Romans? Turks? Arabs?

Diogenes the Cynic

But the buildings are different, so by your logic, it's not the same city.
But it's not the same city, according to your own logic.
Tyrians, of course (who are now Lebanese).

dongiovanni1976x

This is all you give me after all the points I made?!
:huh:

How can you say Tyre was no more? This is absolutely ludicrous. We have archaeological and literary evidence (minted coins, pottery fragments, Arrian, Curtius, Diodorus, Plutarch, Strabo, Justin, Josephus etc) as well as the testimony of modern historians and specialists like Dr. Patricia Bikai, who excavated Tyre from 1971-75 with her husband Dr. Pierre Bikai, Dr. Maurice Chehab, director of antiquities in Lebanon, Dr. H. Katzenstein, author of one of the most indepth analyses of early Tyrian history, Dr. E. Carella, curator of the Semitic Museum at Harvard, Dr. M. Chalabi (who live in Tyre), Dr. Nina Jidejian, Dr. Joukowsky from Brown University, whom I have personally spoken to about this very subject, Dr. Seeden, prof. of Archaeology at the American University of Beirut in Lebanon etc etc) What are you offering other than unsupported opinion from an obvious slant? Richbee, I would be the first to admit that if the evidence was in your favor that I am wrong but you are not offering any evidence of any kind.

Your adjective "major", when used with the city Alexandria, implies that Alexandria was not the only trading port, and no one is arguing that Tyre lost its prestige but it "recovered quickly" as Dr. Jidejian stated (Tyre Through the Ages, p80-81), and Tyre's trade only waned slowly, as Dr. Bikai pointed out- due to Ptolemy opening up the canal connecting the Red Sea to the Mediterranean (Bikai, P. Classical Tyre, p61) And if the "new land" which was created by the construction of the land bridge/causeway to the island was put to "immediate use" (ibid) which then "brought some relief to the RESIDENTS of the island city which was notorious in antiquity for its smell," (ibid) then how can you claim there were no Tyrians after Alexander's siege?

Gemme sump'n here- throw me a bone man! In all sincerity, what leg do you have left to stand on?

Richbee

I don't care.

Like I posted, I take an agressive POV, and I believe that Nebbie completed the prophesy or the Persians. You have to take account that the Old Tyre was in some ways Blessed, before this King of Ezekiel 28 proclaims that he is a "god" - note - he is thrown down, and Old Tyre is destroyed. (the island wasn't mush to speak of.)

I provided two sources that disagree with me on this, and they go on at length about the "many nations" and the ultimate end of many other Tyre 2.0, 3.0, etc.

One more note, that the Tyre in the time of Alexander the Great is so weak, they have to hire Greek mercenaries.

LOL!

The "Queen of the Seas" was destroyed, and now tiny fishing boats are the "glory" of Farrell Till's Tyre.

The Old Tyre was larger than Sidon, now Tyre is a fraction the size of Sidon.

dongiovanni1976x

There were very few things that Alexander was unable to do when he put his mind to it. Believing he was descended from Herakles, (among other mythical figures, i.e. Achilles, Zeus) Alexander had a personal motive, and not only a political one, to worship in the Ancient Heraclian Temple on the island of Tyre.

Now, jump ahead for a moment and picture our immigrant situation in America...Do we say that if enough Mexican's cross the Rio Grande and settle in Brownsville that it is no longer Brownsville? Likewise do the embassaries from Carthage (a colony of Tyre, just like America was to Britain) that came to settle in Tyre right after the siege negate the fact that upon their CHOICE to settle and inhabit Tyre that they become TYRIANS? Does a child of a Mexican, who chose to settle in America, not become an American upon being born in this country? Would not this be the same for the Carthiginians, who were Phoenician themselves, when they had children in Tyre, which "RECOVERED QUICKLY"?

Back to Alexander for a moment...Diodorus tells us that Balloynomous, who was proclaimed King of Tyre in the market place after the siege was given the Palatial seat of his predecessor, Azemilicus. Dr. Pierre Bikai tells us that,
The administrative center would have been the Palace of the King and the Religious center would have been the ancient Temple. If Alexander installed a king and gave him the palatial seat of his predecessor, then the Palace was left standing (in fact Alexander increased the size of this palace according to Diodorus) and, and this goes back to how I started this post, if Alexander wanted to worship at the ancient temple in Tyre (which was his main reason for besieging the city- and to save face etc) then we should have evidence that Alexander also lef tthe religious center - i.e. the Temple in tact. And in fact we do have such evidence.

Ostensibly as much for religious purposes as for political ones - a very astute leader, this student of Aristotle was...

So, if a city is nominally defined by its local, and its people are nominally defined by the name of the city (Rome has Romans, Boston has Bostonians etc) and the heart of the city of Tyre was on the island where the administrative and religious centers were located (the kings Palace and the ancient Temple of Herakles, respectively) and these buildings were intact when Alexander left- as well as the old king, his entourage, the dignitaries from Carthage, the pardoned town aristocracy, the new king, Tyrian slaves who bought their freedom, Tyrians who had been smuggled out to Sidon, and the new King Balloynomous who was cherry picked by Alexander's lover, Hephaestion...then how can anyone argue with Dr. Jidejian who says Tyre "recovered quickly" after the siege or with Dr. Bikai who says it was Ptolemy opeing up the Red Sea canal that drew Tyrian trade influence to the south???

Richbee

The Phoencian colony of Carthage wept bitter tears for their Tyre that no more. (I wax poetic with fine Wine!)

By the time of the Romans, Tyre was quitre literally nothing. Zero. A place for small fishing boats.

Next.

You suffer from idealism and relativism. The Old Tyre that Ekekiel had known and wrote about was and is no more.

Face it.

dongiovanni1976x

Where am I talking about Romans?

dongiovanni1976x

You don't care...this is how you answer all my evidence? Why are you taking this "agressive POV"? Why are you wasting your time blowing this useless nonesense...now you want to revert to Nebuchadnezzar OR the Persians as the source of Tyre's destruction...when did Ushu (your Old Tyre) become Tyre? The Tyre Ezekiel was referring to was on a "ROCK" island my friend- hence the name...I have provided extensive archaeological and literary evidence to demonstrate this and now you jst want to say you don't care...this is how a child argues.

Tell me Richbee, what makes you believe that Nebuchadnezzar completed this prophecy? You have disagreed with everyone here, every historian and archaeologist cited- both ancient and modern- as well as even admitting that you disagree with your own sources. NOw you are disagreeing with yourself by saying that it was not Alexander but Nebuchadnezzar that fulfilled the prophecy. You have absolutely no credibility left...not from us, not from historians, not from archaeologists, not from Christian apologists like John Bloom and NOW NOT EVEN FROM YOURSELF as you have just admitted to disagreeing with everything you have just been arguing in support of...

You are an enigma, I tell ya.
:grin:

Richbee

Tyre is a hell hole.

I met a nice lady from Tyre, and she tells no local doubts the Bible and Ezekiel, because they all know that the Old Tyre is well South of the manure hole now known as Tyre.