Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 11-23-2005, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Message to CJD: 1. Do you believe that God condemns homosexuality? 2. Do you believe that the Bible writers always spoke for God and not for themselves? 3. Do you believe that there are any practical arguments against homosexuality?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

1. I gather what God condemns is any act that is less than what he fully intends for humanity. Homosexuality probably falls into this category.

Why do you assume that the Bible writers were speaking for God? The book of Revelation warns against tampering with the texts. If tampering were not possible, there would have been no need for the warning. What about the letters of Paul indicates that they are anything more than ordinary letters?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

2. For clarity's sake, I suppose you meant "the Bible writer's specific writings that have been canonized." Scriptural authority is far more nuanced than what most Christians — and skeptics — think. You're question doesn't really make sense to me. Suffice to say, there is no necessary contradiction between "speaking for oneself" and "speaking for God."

Same as before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

3. Yes.

Based upon what evidence? This should be fun. I have debated this topic extensively over the past few years, and I am well-prepared to refute anything that you post regarding practical arguments against homosexuality.

Nice Squirrel · 12-07-2005, 08:18 PM

I see that calebnostro is Arguing that Jesus has stated:

Quote:

Christ told us that the Bible is the Word of God, yet, the Bible itself, without the words of Christ, states that Christ Himself is the Word of God. Therefore, the Bible, symbolically and metaphorically = Christ Jesus.

This could not be, the Bible didn't exist until centuries after Christ. Christ never refers to the Bible in the Bible, so how could this be?

CJD · 12-08-2005, 06:12 AM

Jesus refers to the TNK all over the place, and in so doing, he allots it a great amount of authority. What calebnostro states is not that far off the mark. Jesus and his followers considered him (his life, death, resurrection) to be the last word of God. He was considered to be the end, the goal, the purpose, the fulfillment of the very story, or narrative, of God's people Israel. Thus, from the Christian perspective, the scriptures do = the Christ.

CJD

fragmentsofdreams · 12-08-2005, 11:00 AM

No. Equating the Bible with Jesus, even symbolically is bordering on idolatry.

Stumpjumper · 12-09-2005, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calebnostro

Jeremiah 31:31, 33: (31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If it is as my opponent says, then this is a lie. God’s Law, in the New Covenant would be in the hearts and minds of the people of Israel, therefore, how could it be abolished? If it’s a single, unified law-system as my opponent has lead everyone to believe, then this is a contradiction. However, if the Levitical Priesthood was separate from God’s Commandments, Statutes and Judgments, then there is no contradiction, for God’s Laws would still exist, God’s moral standard.

The initial covenant was between God and all of humanity in

Genesis 8:21
"And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

This was a covenant of grace and sustenance and it was this covenant that was fulfilled by the "new covenant in my blood". Only the econony of this covenant has been done away with and replaced with the divine law of love as revealed by Christ. Calebnostro is referencing the wrong covenant with Jeremiah.

In the words of Karl Barth: "All this clearly means that the circle of the covenant which in its earliest form is open on man's side will in its new form be closed: not because men will be better, but because God will deal with the same men in a completely different way, laying His hand, as it were, upon them from behind, because He Himself will turn them to Himself."

The first covenant was open on man's side but when the New Covenant comes to its completion it will no longer be so.

Stumpjumper · 12-09-2005, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calebnostro

My opponent continues to contend that the Bible is not the Word of God, yet, my same opponent, who has stated many things, which cannot be proven by scripture, has not addressed my evidence to the contrary as stated by Mark 7:7-9, 13. My opponent has outright asked for a declaration concerning the words of Christ Himself to show and prove that the Bible is the Word of God. Yet, my opponent has ignored all that evidence that I have given concerning this. It is stated quite clearly in Mark 7:7-9, 13. It is the very first passage used in my rebuttal to my opponents opening statement and therefore, I will merely direct the audience and my opponent back to it as it clearly shows that my opponent is in error regarding the fact that the Commandment of God = Word of God. This, coupled with Isaiah 8:20 = The Bible. Thus, by Biblical “context�?, that is, the “Bible�? telling us itself – all that I have shown regarding this is the truth. The Bible is The Word of God. Christ told us that the Bible is the Word of God, yet, the Bible itself, without the words of Christ, states that Christ Himself is the Word of God. Therefore, the Bible, symbolically and metaphorically = Christ Jesus.

This is a strange argument to make. Logos or the Word of God is God's creative faculties and this is why it is stated that creation took place in Christ. To say that the Bible is the Word of God limits the Logos. If the Bible is the Word of God then how can the Bible testify that the "Word became flesh."

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Although we learn about the Word from scripture, scripture is not the Word of God.

Quote:

When concerning “loving�? God, all one has to do is read 1 John 5:1-3. To “love�? God is to keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous. Therefore we have the following;

1. Loving God = Keeping God’s Commandments, Statutes and Judgments
2. Loving one’s neighbor = Treat people according to God’s Law

Why skip to 1 John 5 when we find this at 2 John:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2 John

Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

We love God by keeping his commandments yes. But, how can we love God if we constantly draw circles and keep others outside of the grace of God's love because of sexual identity, religious persuasion, or any of the many other factors that Christians use to judge between the wheat and the tares.

In 1 John, we are told that we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love our neighbors as ourselves. Christ has freed us from the bondage of the law so that we are free to follow Him. Our chains have been broken and because of that we should live by the law of love and spread the circles wider not place others outside of the circle as the unrighteous and undeserved.

Whether or not Lev. references gay sex, Christians should live by the law of love and care for the "least of these my children". We should not condemn others for living in a loving and committed same sex relationship because Jesus did no such thing.

Crazy Liz · 12-14-2005, 10:12 AM

I hope before the next round calebnostro studies the logical fallacy of equivocation. I'd really like to see if he has anything to offer other than trying to do algebra with words.

Crazy Liz · 12-14-2005, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Liz

I hope before the next round calebnostro studies the logical fallacy of equivocation. I'd really like to see if he has anything to offer other than trying to do algebra with words.

*sigh* I guess not.

Stumpjumper · 12-14-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calebnostro

Therefore, if you would put these two together, obviously, one cannot rightfully deny that the contextual evidence shows that the Law and the Prophets, plus the words of Christ Himself are the same as each other. Thus, it is as I have shown and arguing concerning the English usage of the capitalized “Word�? makes no difference. It is irrelevant. Thus, the Bible in its commandments and statements equals the words of Christ. I have no need to continue to show my case, for this proves it quite conclusively on this regard.

Umm. No!

The Bible is not God in any way, shape, or form.

Jesus of Nazareth, whom some would call the logos of God incarnate, referenced the law a little differently:

Matthew 5

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

The Word of God is how God has revealed, reconciled, redeemed, and atoned humanity but it is NOT the Bible. The Word of God is not strictly Jesus of Nazareth. We can read about the Word of God in the Bible and hear the Word of God in prayer, but the Word of God is not the Bible.

This is a heretical view: "Thus, the Bible in its commandments and statements equals the words of Christ."

Christ is alive and active in the world today and to constrain the message of Jesus Christ to the Bible is inexcusable.

Crazy Liz · 12-14-2005, 03:28 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html

http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Infor...ivocation.html

http://www.adamsmith.org/logicalfallacies/000617.php

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12-08-2005, 06:12 AM	#33
CJD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: greater Orlando area Posts: 832	Jesus refers to the TNK all over the place, and in so doing, he allots it a great amount of authority. What calebnostro states is not that far off the mark. Jesus and his followers considered him (his life, death, resurrection) to be the last word of God. He was considered to be the end, the goal, the purpose, the fulfillment of the very story, or narrative, of God's people Israel. Thus, from the Christian perspective, the scriptures do = the Christ. CJD

12-08-2005, 11:00 AM	#34
fragmentsofdreams Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Picture postcard place Posts: 2,376	No. Equating the Bible with Jesus, even symbolically is bordering on idolatry.

12-14-2005, 10:12 AM	#37
Crazy Liz Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: California Posts: 9,313	I hope before the next round calebnostro studies the logical fallacy of equivocation. I'd really like to see if he has anything to offer other than trying to do algebra with words.

12-14-2005, 03:28 PM	#40
Crazy Liz Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: California Posts: 9,313	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation http://www.fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Infor...ivocation.html http://www.adamsmith.org/logicalfallacies/000617.php

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