Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 02-03-2008, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

OK - not sure where this is going.

Statue of Zeus in Olympia

Quote:

The face of the statue later is used in eastern Catholic depictions of Jesus and is still common in churches throughout the world

I had in mind those other "Zeus" statues that are depicted in Wikipedia, having a much stronger resemblance to the traditional chrestian depictions of "Jezus" such as the bust of "Zeus" displayed in The British Museum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

On the other hand, the earliest images of Jesus are much later than Paul is usually dated.

Images of Jesus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The earliest surviving Christian art comes from the late 3rd and early 4th centuries on the walls of Christian tombs in the catacombs. Here, and only here, Jesus is portrayed in two different ways: older, bearded and robed and another as a bare faced youth holding a wand. . . .

That is "art" that is distinctively and easily identified as being of a "Christian" origin. usually by the inclusion of some very prominent and distinctive Christian iconography, ie crosses and christian monograms, but in the centuries before that....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Later the more familiar long haired and bearded Jesus figure came to dominate. Egyptologist John Romer, in his Seven Wonders of the World, has pointed out the portrayal of Jesus is very similar to the surviving portrayals of Zeus or Jupiter, the father of the pagan Gods, who was the protector of the Roman Empire.

Sheshbazzar · 02-03-2008, 10:40 PM

"The Statue of Zeus at Olympia" would not have been so easily transportable, and its fame, history and provenance would have made it difficult for the early Christians to make believable any claims that it depicted Jezus, however, any small to medium sized statue or bust could quite easily be renamed as a depiction of "Jezus" regardless of whom or what the original sculpture was originally "named" or intended to depict.

Sheshbazzar · 02-03-2008, 11:01 PM

I must add that I don't implicate Saul ("Paul") the Traveling Jewish Preacher in any of this idolotrous iconography, it being solely the work, and one aspect of the pagan "Chrestani" Mystery cults innovations upon Paul's teaching.

angelo · 02-04-2008, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

This is like removing a brick wall brick by brick. Remove all the bricks, and soon the wall seems like it never existed in the first place.
Studied properly, christianity is just like the brick wall.

There are no walls or bricks, Christianity appears to be a illusion of a brick wall, an apparition, a dream.
As soon as you wake up, it's gone.

This is the the so-called "Paul" in 2 Corinthians 12.1-2

Quote:

".....I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord."

"And I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago( whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell God knoweth )........."

And I knew such a man, ( whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell, God knoweth.)

"Paul" cannot tell me anything. He is not sure. He must have been dreaming. That woke me up. Christianity is gone. No bricks or walls.

I'm telling you mate. He sounds like he suffered from mental illness. Lets face it. People who had a mental illness in those days was either thought of as a prophet or possed by a demon.

paarsurrey · 02-11-2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by paarsurrey

Hi

I understand from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1838-1908, the PromisedMessiah, in his book Chashma-e-Masihi in Urdu, I have translated a passage from it herein below:

“It should be remembered that Paul was a deadly enemy of Jesus, and as is written in the history books of Jews, he had certain motives with the Jews which they did not fulfill; so Paul became a Christian to harm Jews to avenge from them for his lost ambitions, he apparently claimed that he saw a vision though, in which he had met Jesus.”

Is there any history book of Jews which mentions the above?

Thanks

No, there is no mention of Paul in Jewish history books.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Islam is conjectured to have adopted some of the history and doctrines of the non-orthodox Christian sects, and this appears to be an Ebionite view of Paul.

Hi

Sorry, I started the thread but due to some emergent personal problems I could not contrubute further into the thread. I am very thankful to all my friends here who participated in this discussion and contributed very valuable information in it.

Since I informally translated the passage from the book of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1838-1908, the PromisedMessiah, I think I shall better rephrase the sentence "and as is written in the history books of Jews" with the sentence "and as is ascribed in the accounts pertaining to Jews".

Thanks

Ben C Smith · 02-11-2008, 08:16 PM

Jesus portrayed as Zeus was sometimes controversial. Nicephorus Callistus, Church History 15.23:

Τουτου δε του Γενναδιου ιεραρχουντος και τις ζωγραφος επι σχηματος Διος τον σωτηρα γραψαι τολμησας αντιμισθιαν της πραξεως το ξηραν αυχησαι την χειρα εκτησατο· ον το εγκλημα παρρησια ομολογησαντα ευχη Γενναδιος εξιατο. χρεων μεντοι ειδεναι οτι επι του σωτηρος το ουλον μαλλον και ολιγοτριχον αληθεστερον εστιν, ως εκ των ιστορουντων διεγνωμεν.

And while this Gennadius was serving as high priest there was also a certain painter who, having dared to depict the savior after the pattern of Zeus, won as compensation for the deed the withering of his hand; Gennadius healed him with prayer after he had openly confessed the act. It is thus necessary to see that short and curly hair is more true to the savior, as we have found out from the historians.

(This is much, much later than either Paul or Jesus, of course.)

Ben.

paarsurrey · 02-11-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Didn't Robert Travers Herford propose, that Gahazi in b. Gitt. 56b, 57a, and b. Sotah. 47a, refers to Paul?

His book Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (or via: amazon.co.uk) was published by Williams & Norgate, in London, in 1903. The hypothesis could have reached Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in Srinigar, Kashmir, India, if the work translated was publshed between 1903 and his death in 1908.

According to a bit of internet sluthing, it looks like _Chashma-e-Masihi_ was penned 1st March, 1906. It is currently collected along with Mizra Gulam's other writings in _Roohani Khazain_ volume 20, 1984.
http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/las...ahmad_pf.shtml
http://www.alislam.org/urdu/rk/

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

No, there is no mention of Paul in Jewish history books.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Islam is conjectured to have adopted some of the history and doctrines of the non-orthodox Christian sects, and this appears to be an Ebionite view of Paul.

Hi

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1838-1908, the PromisedMessiah, did not know English or any other European language, excepting a few words. He knew Urdu, Persian and Arabic, wrote poetry and prose in these languages and excelled in them. He had many able-minded disciples and followers who knew English language but personally he did not know any English. The book “Christianity in Talmud and Midrash” as suggested by our friend might have reached him, in that case some of his disciples might have read the book and explained its contents to him or something else might have happened. He spent most of his life in his native village, a small town called Qadian in the district of Gurdaspur, East Punjab, India. He did not have any formal schooling and did not study in any College or University. He never lived in Sirinagar Kashmir, to my knowledge.
The main source of his knowledge was the Word of God revealed on him by GodAllahYHWH, and it is only because of this that people from many nations drew to him from nook and corners of the world to his native village.

Thanks

angelo · 02-12-2008, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paarsurrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Didn't Robert Travers Herford propose, that Gahazi in b. Gitt. 56b, 57a, and b. Sotah. 47a, refers to Paul?

His book Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (or via: amazon.co.uk) was published by Williams & Norgate, in London, in 1903. The hypothesis could have reached Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in Srinigar, Kashmir, India, if the work translated was publshed between 1903 and his death in 1908.

According to a bit of internet sluthing, it looks like _Chashma-e-Masihi_ was penned 1st March, 1906. It is currently collected along with Mizra Gulam's other writings in _Roohani Khazain_ volume 20, 1984.
http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/las...ahmad_pf.shtml
http://www.alislam.org/urdu/rk/

DCH

Hi

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1838-1908, the PromisedMessiah, did not know English or any other European language, excepting a few words. He knew Urdu, Persian and Arabic, wrote poetry and prose in these languages and excelled in them. He had many able-minded disciples and followers who knew English language but personally he did not know any English. The book “Christianity in Talmud and Midrash” as suggested by our friend might have reached him, in that case some of his disciples might have read the book and explained its contents to him or something else might have happened. He spent most of his life in his native village, a small town called Qadian in the district of Gurdaspur, East Punjab, India. He did not have any formal schooling and did not study in any College or University. He never lived in Sirinagar Kashmir, to my knowledge.
The main source of his knowledge was the Word of God revealed on him by GodAllahYHWH, and it is only because of this that people from many nations drew to him from nook and corners of the world to his native village.

Thanks

So states the tradition. But that's all it is, a tradition.
But I seem to recall he lived in Kashmir. I stand to be corrected.

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 08:17 PM

Apparently Paul was thought at one time to be an Egyptian False prophet. Josephus described such a character in Jewish Wars

Quote:

A still worse blow was dealt at the Jews by the Egyptian false prophet. A charlatan, who had gained for himself the reputation of a prophet, this man appeared in the country, collected a following of about thirty thousand dupes, and led them by a circuitous route from the desert to the mount called the mount of Olives. From there hw proposed to force an entrance into Jerusalem and,after overpowering the Roman garrison,to set himself up as tyrant of the people. (Josephus, Jewish War 2.261-263 = Jewish Antiquities 20.169-171)

This Egyptian false prophet is mentioned in the Book of Acts 21

Quote:

And as Paul was about to be brought into the castle, he saith unto the chief captain, May I say something unto thee? And he said, Dost thou know Greek? 38 Art thou not then the Egyptian, who before these days stirred up to sedition and led out into the wilderness the four thousand men of the Assassins? 39 But Paul said, I am a Jew, of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and I beseech thee, give me leave to speak unto the people. 40 And when he had given him leave, Paul, standing on the stairs, beckoned with the hand unto the people; and when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew language, saying:

Brethren and fathers, hear ye the defence which I now make unto you.

2 And when they heard that he spake unto them in the Hebrew language, they were the more quiet: and he saith,

3 I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, at the feet of Gamaliel, instructed according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God, even as ye all are this day: 4 and I persecuted this Way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

paarsurrey · 02-13-2008, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by paarsurrey

Hi

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1838-1908, the PromisedMessiah, did not know English or any other European language, excepting a few words. He knew Urdu, Persian and Arabic, wrote poetry and prose in these languages and excelled in them. He had many able-minded disciples and followers who knew English language but personally he did not know any English. The book “Christianity in Talmud and Midrash” as suggested by our friend might have reached him, in that case some of his disciples might have read the book and explained its contents to him or something else might have happened. He spent most of his life in his native village, a small town called Qadian in the district of Gurdaspur, East Punjab, India. He did not have any formal schooling and did not study in any College or University. He never lived in Sirinagar Kashmir, to my knowledge.
The main source of his knowledge was the Word of God revealed on him by GodAllahYHWH, and it is only because of this that people from many nations drew to him from nook and corners of the world to his native village.

Thanks

So states the tradition. But that's all it is, a tradition.
But I seem to recall he lived in Kashmir. I stand to be corrected.

Hi

Perhaps you have mixed two different things.

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 did no live in Sirinagar. He received a Word of Revelation from GodAllahYHWH that Jesus did not die on the Cross as held by Christians or literally lifted up into the skies as held by many Muslims, rather he escaped death on Cross and he migrated to far off lands. The PromisedMessiah also received a Word of Revelation that in him Second Coming of Jesus has been fullfilled metaphorically.

Later he researched from different sources and found out that Jesus had travelled to India and died naturally in Sirinagar Kashmir and is buried there. All this is mentioned in a book written by him titled "Jesus in India":
http://www.alislam.org/library/books...dia/index.html

Thanks

02-11-2008, 08:16 PM	#26
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Jesus portrayed as Zeus was sometimes controversial. Nicephorus Callistus, Church History 15.23: Τουτου δε του Γενναδιου ιεραρχουντος και τις ζωγραφος επι σχηματος Διος τον σωτηρα γραψαι τολμησας αντιμισθιαν της πραξεως το ξηραν αυχησαι την χειρα εκτησατο· ον το εγκλημα παρρησια ομολογησαντα ευχη Γενναδιος εξιατο. χρεων μεντοι ειδεναι οτι επι του σωτηρος το ουλον μαλλον και ολιγοτριχον αληθεστερον εστιν, ως εκ των ιστορουντων διεγνωμεν. And while this Gennadius was serving as high priest there was also a certain painter who, having dared to depict the savior after the pattern of Zeus, won as compensation for the deed the withering of his hand; Gennadius healed him with prayer after he had openly confessed the act. It is thus necessary to see that short and curly hair is more true to the savior, as we have found out from the historians. (This is much, much later than either Paul or Jesus, of course.) Ben.

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02-03-2008, 10:40 PM	#22
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	"The Statue of Zeus at Olympia" would not have been so easily transportable, and its fame, history and provenance would have made it difficult for the early Christians to make believable any claims that it depicted Jezus, however, any small to medium sized statue or bust could quite easily be renamed as a depiction of "Jezus" regardless of whom or what the original sculpture was originally "named" or intended to depict.

02-03-2008, 11:01 PM	#23
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I must add that I don't implicate Saul ("Paul") the Traveling Jewish Preacher in any of this idolotrous iconography, it being solely the work, and one aspect of the pagan "Chrestani" Mystery cults innovations upon Paul's teaching.

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