Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
01-09-2009, 10:45 AM | #1 | |||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,787
|
Irenaeus and papyrus Oxyrhynchus 405.
More than a year ago several posters on this board were discussing papyrus Oxyrhynchus 405, a fragment of Against Heresies by Irenaeus. I looked into the matter very briefly at the time, but have only recently investigated further.
I do not have the J. A. Robinson article in which he made the identification; but S. C. Carlson has emailed me a 1962 French article by Marcel Richard and Bertrand Hemmerdinger in which the authors compare the Greek fragment with a newly discovered portion of Greek text from Against Heresies (full citation on my baptism of Jesus notes and quotes page). They discovered this text in a book called the Florilegium Achridense, which dates to century XIII. In what follows, the Greek is from this florilegium, which quotes Against Heresies 3.9.3; the Latin is from the usual translation of Irenaeus; and the English is my own rendering: Ειρηναιου επισκοπου Λογδωνου εκ του κατα αιρεσεως βιβλιου·And here is the relevant scrap of papyrus Oxyrhynchus 405; the bracketed material, of course, is reconstructed; it is customary to overline the nomina sacra, but I do not know how to do that on this forum, so I have underlined them instead: ...μη ζητουσιν. [ετι φησιν επι]Note that the first two words of the fragment, μη ζητουσιν (not seeking or who do not seek), are from the end of Against Heresies 3.9.2, which the Latin renders as non quaerebant eum. With this information, we can assess what Jay Raskin mentioned about this fragment: Quote:
του βαπτ[ισματος]This is not counting the first two Greek words of the fragment, which match the Latin, as I mentioned above. There may be plenty of citations of Matthew 3.16-17 in patristic literature, but how many of them come right after a discussion of not seeking something? This is also not counting the fact that, among the words taken from Matthew 3.16-17, the Oxyrhynchus fragment actually agrees with the Greek florilegium and against our received text of Matthew in having you are my beloved son instead of this is my beloved son. IOW, both Irenaeus (according to the florilegium) and the Oxyrhynchus fragment reflect the same minority reading of Matthew. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ben. |
|||||
01-09-2009, 10:56 AM | #2 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 2,014
|
Hi Ben,
This is fascinating. I'll have to reconsider the matter. Thanks, Sincerely, Jay Raskin |
01-09-2009, 01:37 PM | #4 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,787
|
Quote:
The Wiki page hosting that image says the photo is in the public domain. Is that true? If it is, does that mean I can host it on my website? (I hate it when photos I link to disappear from the web.) Ben. |
|
01-09-2009, 01:59 PM | #5 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,307
|
Quote:
Stephen |
|
01-09-2009, 02:18 PM | #6 | ||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
Quote:
All the best, Roger Pearse |
||
01-09-2009, 02:25 PM | #7 | ||
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,787
|
Quote:
Quote:
Love our legal system. Just love it. Roger, I am located in the US. Midwest. Never been to the UK. Would like to go sometime, though. I hear London named a clock after me. Ben. |
||
01-09-2009, 02:36 PM | #8 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
|
|
01-09-2009, 03:54 PM | #9 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
For the benefit of others, it might be worth explaining why the issue is unclear.
The picture is a photograph of a papyrus. The papyrus must be out of copyright, but no-one is allowed to photograph it by the owners (on whatever pretexts they can think up). But is a modern photograph of an out-of-copyright item itself out-of-copyright? The libraries and archives, dedicated as they are to keeping the public away, would say yes. That way they can charge incredible prices for low-quality images and screw over researchers with expense accounts. The argument is that some photographs must be 'art', so should be original creative works, therefore in copyright; so therefore any photograph can be copyrighted. The rest of us have doubts about this, observing the element of special pleading. The laws are unclear, but there is a US precedent which found that photographs of this kind were NOT protected; the Bridgeman art library case. Even UK people pay attention to this (because there is no case law, since no-one can afford to sue). |
01-09-2009, 09:30 PM | #10 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 2,014
|
Good Evidence.
Hi Ben,
Your proof seems solid. Thanks. This tells us that at least some form of "Against Heresies" was likely to have been in circulation in Alexandria around 250 C.E. Unfortunately, it does not supply us with the original date of composition or author's name. Sincerely, Philosopher Jay |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|