pharoah

What do you guys think? Here are some relevant passages.

andrewcriddle

In 2 Corinthians 12 'Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning!' is probably in context an allegation that Paul imagines being made by the Corinthians which he then refutes.

A paraphrase might be (Added phrases in bold.)

Andrew Criddle

Alethias

I'm not a bible scholar, but i don't really see either passage as encouraging deception in spreading the gospel.

Paul saw himself as a parent to the Corinthian church. You don't have to be dis-honest to be a good parent, but you have to be crafty sometimes. Children misbehave and test their boundaries all the time, but they consistently try to hide it from their parents who are the ones who most need to know about the misbehavior. Paul was referring to the kind of craftiness a good parent needs, not the craftyness of deception in 2 Cor 12.

In 1 Cor 9 he is merely talking about cultural awareness. If I went to Borneo to present a business plan, i'd make a different presentation than I would if i made the same presentation to a corporate board in the USA. It's not dis-honest, it just makes good sense to adapt your presentation to the culture your presenting it to.

I have no issue with people finding flaws in the bible, but I think you would responses similar to mine if you used this argument. At least it's how I would have responded to you when I was a christian.

pharoah

That's a possible interpretation, but I don't think it fits well within the context of the entire chapter. The chapter starts off with Paul boasting and admitting that he was boasting, so this seems to be just another boast. The way that I read it is that the Corinthian church was not overly fond of Paul ("the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved"). He apparently considers himself crafty for sending Titus and someone else to the church in his stead. ("But be that as it may, I did not burden you") Unfortunately, we don't have the whole story. But I'll agree that there's not enough here to charge him with underhandness.

Peter Watts

Here's what I think, Pharoah:
If I choose to believe a book is one big fairy tale, I don't sift through it looking for ways to debunk the content. Seems a little ... obsessive.
Are you trying to make the point that the Bible shouldn't be believed, that certain portions of the Bible shouldn't be believed, or that Paul shouldn't be believed?

pharoah

There are many people who think that Paul took Christianity down a far different road than Jesus and the twelve apostles intended. They argue that his denigration of the Law when preaching to Gentiles is an example of that. Now take a look at Paul on trial before the Sanhedrin council in Acts 23.

Paul flat out lied. He was not on trial for belief in the resurrection of the dead, and he knew it. This was just a device to drive a wedge between the Pharisees and Saducees. Loook at Acts 21 to find out what he really was on trial for. It's understandable that he was trying to save his life, but was lying the Christian way to do it?

So I think that Paul was talking about something far more profound than a cultural presentation in this verse.

pharoah

Well let's see.... The OT has some limited historical value, so some of it is useful. The NT can be discarded wholesale - there's nothing of any value there. However, a great many people don't see it that way. Debunking the Creation and the Flood is child's play. It's much more fun to tacke the pillars of Christianity such as Jesus and Paul.

SaintCog

Peter, if you lived in a society where a majority of the population regarded humpty dumpty as a morally authoritative story, and that a significant number of these people believed the story to be literally true, and that based upon this much of society's social mores and even government legislation has been shaped by elected officials who have been put into office by such people, you might have a much more vested interest in examining these fairy tales critically. Pharoah is doing nothing more than that.

Regarding the 2 Cor passage, read the entire letter (Chs 10-13, if you hold as I do that 2 Cor is a composite letter). Paul is extremely pissed in this letter. He's pissed at the Corinthian community, he's pissed about the "super-apostles." He's just rippin pissed and he lays the sarcasm on thick. This also seems to be the case when he says, "Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning!" It simply would not be rhetorically expedient for Paul to boast about his being crafty and cunning, especially in a letter where he is defending himself against the charges of the super-apostles who are accusing him of just that. I think the best way to read Paul calling himself crafty and cunning is as a derisive repetition of those who accused him of being such.

Regarding 1 Cor 9, let me offer an analagous example. Imagine Presdient Bush explaining his campaign strategy in a letter. He might say something like, "To the NRA I became as a gun owner; to the Chrisitian right I became a fundamentalist; to the corporate millionaires I became a businessman." Political preferences aside, none of these would be deceptive since Bush is more or less all of these things. But he needs to speak to different interest groups in different terms. Paul faced a similar situation.

Now, whether Paul actually was deceptive in his evangelizing is another question altogether. But I don't think either of those passages show that he explicitly advocated deception as part of his mission.

Cheers,
SC

Peter Watts

Who gets to decide what in the Bible has some value and what should be tossed? Shouldn't you just stick with your own reason and leave fairy tales alone?

Chris Weimer

If that is what your reason dictates, then sure. I happen to like much of the Bible - some of it is very beautiful, some of it is wise, some of it is appalling, some intriguing. Like Shakespeare, only older. Or the Vedic Hymns, or the Eddas, or the Confucian Canon, etc... Why are you deriding others' interests? Not like yours are...any better.