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Old 05-21-2004, 08:24 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Faith
God does know your heart.
Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

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Living a good life and loving others is part of Jesus' message and certainly shouldn't be discounted.
Lk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

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But God says the evidence of His existence is written on our hearts and in our minds. He says you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart.
Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

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Good deeds or no, you must have faith and you must want to find Him to be saved.
Mt 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:02 PM   #92
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A very good scriptural case can be made for good deeds leading to salvation. A very good scriptural case can be made for simple faith and renouncement of personal sins leading to salvation.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

OK with me.
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Old 05-22-2004, 03:37 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse
Which is better?

Being found to be a faithful servant when the Master returns,...OR,
Being found unfaithful and rebellious when the Master returns?

(By the way, logic shows, if my God does not exist, then there's no harm in my following Scripture's instruction, because there is no ultimate accountability and ALL is vanity. Here, Christians have nothing to lose, and all to gain because God does exist and rewards those honor him; and unbelievers have nothing to gain and all to lose because the end for all in their scheme is simply the grave.)

Edited to add : Crazyfingers already said it and I hadn't seen it. Oh Well, even so, I'll leave it here.

The problem with Pascal's wager is that you assume "God exists" is equal to "the Judeo-Christian God" exists. If the Muslims got it right, then you will go to hell (this is EXPLICITLY written in the Koran) even if you believed in God. The wager is a two-edged sword. It applies to believers as much as to unbelievers. In fact, it should worry you even more than me because you believe hell is possible, you believe supernaturalism is possible. Are you really sure you didn't pick the wrong faith?
Unbelievers have much to lose if they follow God's law and he doesn't exist : they fucked up their ONLY life following a set of primitive rules that hinders their man-given right to the pursuit of happiness.
I'm an atheist so I don't follow Biblical laws for the same reason that you don't follow Hindu ritual laws. I'm sure the Bible is rubbish as much as you're sure the Rig Veda is rubbish.
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Old 05-22-2004, 04:07 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Faith
living a Christ-like existence
You mean cursing fig trees and asking for my enemies to be slayed before me?
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Old 05-22-2004, 04:41 AM   #95
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OK. Looks like there is no evidence for Jesus/God changing the day of Sabbath beyond ad-hoc phony theology. Point made

Timothy, I have to ask it again (third time) :
Do you think Leviticus 18:22 is still valid?
I expect you to consider Leviticus 18:22 as still valid. It's a clear condemnation of sexual contact between two men. What do you tell gay Christians who truly believe in Jesus and make up ad-hoc theology to nullify this verse (and other similar verses)? They do the same as you do. They ignore the clear meaning of Biblical verses they don't like or that would be hard for them to live by. And just like you, they interpret other vague verses into meaning what they want.
WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE YOUR INTERPRETATION RATHER THAN THAT OF OTHER CHRISTIANS WHEN NONE OF YOU ARE REAL LITERALISTS BELIEVING IN SOLA SCRIPTURA?
What about Leviticus 19:19? Is this one still valid?



I'd like to know one more thing. I read the Bible. I read your apologetics in this thread and that of other Christians elsewhere. I'm not convinced. In fact I even find Christianity disgusting. Mark my word: not only utterly false (that goes without saying) but truly repulsive. Don't you think that if your God existed, we would easily be convinced by merely studying his word? Don't you think that somehow everyone would feel his presence in an undeniable way?
What about "once saved, always saved"? That sure doesn't apply to me but many atheists on this board are former Christians (some of them Bible-thumping fundamentalists).
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Old 05-23-2004, 09:24 AM   #96
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Default Wolves in sheeps skins

From Prometheus_fr


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Why do most Christians violate the 10 Commandments?

The reason that most christians violate the 10 Commandments is that they do not have Christ in them. They only have an empty profession. Men say that they have “Jesus in their hearts�. If this were true, wouldn’t the Jesus in their hearts act like the Jesus of 2000 years ago? Did he keep the Sabbath day holy? Did he love his enemies?

Just as a forum thread with a particular name and purpose can be hijacked, having the same name but a different purpose – So the Christianity of the first couple centuries has been hijacked. It has the same name, but the modern professor does not adhere to the same purpose and life that Jesus lived.

Men today believe in a historical Jesus, but without the connection to the heavenly Father that Jesus had. This is what has allowed them to pick and choose which commandments they want to follow and which they do not want to follow. It has left the modern christian trying to convert society into its void, dark world. They have no love in their hearts, therefore can only use force and violence to drag sheep into their fold, even if it means overthrowing their government first.

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Old 05-24-2004, 05:21 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Elisha
From Prometheus_fr
The reason that most christians violate the 10 Commandments is that they do not have Christ in them. They only have an empty profession. Men say that they have “Jesus in their hearts�.
Or "Christ" doesn't exist and Christians are just normal humans trying to pass off their beliefs as truth and their relative moral standards as absolute.


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If this were true, wouldn’t the Jesus in their hearts act like the Jesus of 2000 years ago?
I agree.


Quote:
Did he keep the Sabbath day holy? Did he love his enemies?
Both are debatable.
He did things on Sabbath day that are normally forbidden. On the other hand he never changed either the day of the Sabbath or the fact that it is still valid for his followers.
As for loving one's enemies. He did say so but he also said the opposite in the Parabole of the Minas (Luke 19:27). He also said he would bring war and discord (matt 10:34). Jesus appears schizophrenic in the NT and you can make him either tolerant and compassionate or utterly intolerant and cruel depending on the verses you choose. I think that's Christianity biggest problem : since the Bible is incoherent on many topics and can be interpreted into saying one thing or the opposite you can justify almost any set of values. For better or for worse. Unfortunately, it's often for worse.
Most people who honestly believe they know the ultimate truth feel a compulsion to impose it on others, forcibly if necessary.

Are you a Christian?
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Old 05-24-2004, 08:04 PM   #98
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Default A Christian?

To Prometheus_fr

I live as Christ lived. His Spirit resides in my soul.

But.

If George Bush is an example of a Christian, than I am not one.

If Billy Graham is an example of a Christian, than I am not one.

If the millions of people who clamor for revenge, instead of loving their enemies are Christians, than I am not one.

If a Christian is one who uses force, bribery and deceit to enlarge its global congregation (democracy), as well as its coffers, than I am not one.

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Old 05-25-2004, 01:38 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elisha
To Prometheus_fr

I live as Christ lived. His Spirit resides in my soul.

But.

If George Bush is an example of a Christian, than I am not one.

If Billy Graham is an example of a Christian, than I am not one.

If the millions of people who clamor for revenge, instead of loving their enemies are Christians, than I am not one.

If a Christian is one who uses force, bribery and deceit to enlarge its global congregation (democracy), as well as its coffers, than I am not one.

Elisha
That's fine by me. I respect anyone's right to hold any belief system as long as they don't try to push it on others. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Christians are so certain that their interpretation of the Bible is THE truth that they feel compelled to "share" it with everyone, forcibly if necessary.
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Old 05-25-2004, 07:26 AM   #100
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Default Why do most Christians violate the 10 Commandments? (O, ye hypocrites)

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